Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
USPA and FAA reg violations

 


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Oct 10, 2005, 5:55 AM
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USPA and FAA reg violations Can't Post

I'm in a spot and not really sure what, if anything, I need to do. I was wondering if anyone here has been to a dropzone where BSRs and FAA regs (major ones) were being violated and what did you do (?). Approaching the DZO didn't do anything but piss him off.


larsrulz  (C 34603)

Oct 10, 2005, 6:07 AM
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Re: [exnavykds] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

Without knowing the seriousness of the violations, the people who are concerned with such violations are:

FAA regulation violations should be reported to your local FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO). Address and phone number can be found here.

USPA BSR violations should be reported to your USPA Regional Director. Check out this to find your RD based on state/region. I might suggest contacting your USPA RD first, as they might be able to put the violation into perspective, but if you disagree with them and feel strongly about it, then of course let your FAA FSDO know.

Also, your S&TA should be spoken to, as BSR violations are that individuals responsibility more so than the DZO. I've personally never had to report a violation, but in a sport where student safety could be at hand (in which students may not realize the danger that is involved in a violation that they aren't expected to know) some violations can be very serious.


(This post was edited by larsrulz on Oct 10, 2005, 6:09 AM)


piisfish

Oct 10, 2005, 6:09 AM
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Re: [exnavykds] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

are you talking about clouds ??


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Oct 10, 2005, 8:10 AM
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Re: [exnavykds] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

You may wish to send a PM to HooknSwoop. I believe he left a certain Texas dropzone out of frustration with their lack of attention to rules.

_Am


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Oct 10, 2005, 8:24 AM
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Thanks for the helpful information. It should be noted that the DZO that got pissed off IS the S&TA.


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Oct 10, 2005, 8:25 AM
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Re: [piisfish] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

No, clouds aren't the issue here.


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Oct 10, 2005, 8:27 AM
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Re: [AndyMan] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the note Andy, I may PM HooknSwoop anyway, but it should be noted that the DZ in question is NOT in Texas. Still, he may have some good advice for me.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Oct 10, 2005, 8:53 AM
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Re: [exnavykds] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

Reporting violations is dangerous political ground.
Tread cautiously.
Start by asking local instructors why they are not following BSSs.
Remember that USPA's Board of Directors can waive some BSRs.
Your second step should be to ask the local S+TA.
Your third step should be to ask the local DZO.
Your fourth step should be to ask the USPA Regional Director.

Your last step should be asking the FAA. Generally the FAA does not want to be bothered by the !% of the population that skydives. If skydives are not endangering airliners or innocent bystanders, the FAA does not care. However, if you file a written complaint, they are obliged to investigate. Which consumes time and manpower they would prefer to chasing Al Quida.

Sometimes your only recourse is to tell the DZO why you are taking your money to his competitor.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Oct 10, 2005, 9:07 AM
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Quote:
Thanks for the note Andy, I may PM HooknSwoop anyway, but it should be noted that the DZ in question is NOT in Texas. Still, he may have some good advice for me.

There is nothing you can do.

The FAA doesn't care. The USPA is paid by the DZ's and doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds it. (The fox is guarding the henhouse). As you discovered, talking to the DZO just makes him mad. This is because DZO's aren't 'policed' by anyone and are used to doing whatever they want. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. (ego and money) Your peers either don't want to know
(apathetic), don't want to make waves and keep quiet, or got sucked into the whole 'dropzones are a family' b.s. and wouldn't believe a FAR violation if they saw it firsthand. (It's like a cult mentality)

You have 2 choices:

1) Live with it the way things are and keep quiet, or

2) Quit skydiving.

I made my choice.

Derek


Tink1717  (D 12524)

Oct 10, 2005, 9:53 AM
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Re: [exnavykds] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

Since clouds aren't the issue, what is? We could be of more help if we had the details of your complaint. What is going on?


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 10, 2005, 10:06 AM
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In reply to:
Quote:
Thanks for the note Andy, I may PM HooknSwoop anyway, but it should be noted that the DZ in question is NOT in Texas. Still, he may have some good advice for me.

There is nothing you can do.

You can take your business elsewhere, and maybe that of your friends. Not all DZOs are in violation.

One thing that wasn't mentioned is what the problem is. To make an analogy, is it like driving at 31mph in a 30 limit, or is it like driving drunk and stoned?


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Oct 10, 2005, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
You can take your business elsewhere, and maybe that of your friends. Not all DZOs are in violation.

I haven't been to one that isn't.

Derek


justinb138  (B 28762)

Oct 10, 2005, 10:11 AM
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Re: [kallend] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You can take your business elsewhere, and maybe that of your friends. Not all DZOs are in violation.

I know a few people from the DZ in question that have, and I'm glad they did. I've got a few more friends to jump with now.
Smile

In reply to:
One thing that wasn't mentioned is what the problem is. To make an analogy, is it like driving at 31mph in a 30 limit, or is it like driving drunk and stoned?

From what I've heard from people that used to jump there, it probably isn't the 31 in a 30 thing.


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Oct 10, 2005, 10:12 AM
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Re: [Tink1717] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

If we are dealing with ONLY the violations I witnessed first hand, we can start with these...

BSR section H, item 3 states that manned ground-to-air communications are to be present on the dropzone during skydiving operations.

BSR section K, item 2.d states that all students are to be equipped with a functional automatic activation device (AAD) that meets manufacturer’s recommended service schedule (this is also mandated in FAA regulations, section 105.43.c).

BSR section K, item 2.f states that a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student’s weight be provided.

BSR section K, item 2.g states that a freefall student must be equipped with a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute.

FAA regulations, section 65.111 clearly sets forth the criteria as to who can and cannot pack a main parachute.

FAA regulations, section 105.43 states that a reserve parachute must have been packed by a certifificated parachute rigger within 120 days before its use.


mattjw916  (D License)

Oct 10, 2005, 10:52 AM
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BSRs aren't laws, like HnS said, if you don't like what goes on, leave.

In reality, most paid packers aren't riggers and aren't supervised.

In reality, reserves get pencil-packed a lot. Personally, I always follow the rules on this one.

I think you are overreacting, IMHO. I've seen plenty of violations too, but most are of the 31mph variety as kallend described.


nicknitro71  (D 26704)

Oct 10, 2005, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
In reality, most paid packers aren't riggers and aren't supervised.

True on 99% of the DZs especially the big ones.

Quote:
In reality, reserves get pencil-packed a lot.

Also very true.

You can take your money somewhere else just to find out that the same and other violations are being broken.


justinb138  (B 28762)

Oct 10, 2005, 11:03 AM
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In reply to:
FAA regulations, section 105.43 states that a reserve parachute must have been packed by a certifificated parachute rigger within 120 days before its use.

Was this on student gear or sport gear?


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 10, 2005, 11:44 AM
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Re: [justinb138] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
FAA regulations, section 105.43 states that a reserve parachute must have been packed by a certifificated parachute rigger within 120 days before its use.

Was this on student gear or sport gear?

Does it matter, student gear is sport gear.

Sparky


rasmack  (D 647)

Oct 10, 2005, 12:39 PM
Post #19 of 141 (7188 views)
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In reply to:
BSR section K, item 2.d states that all students are to be equipped with a functional automatic activation device (AAD) that meets manufacturer’s recommended service schedule (this is also mandated in FAA regulations, section 105.43.c).

BSR section K, item 2.f states that a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student’s weight be provided.

BSR section K, item 2.g states that a freefall student must be equipped with a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute.
If these regs are violated that is just plain scary. Be they law or not Pirate


MarkM  (C 35089)

Oct 10, 2005, 1:00 PM
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In reply to:
BSR section H, item 3 states that manned ground-to-air communications are to be present on the dropzone during skydiving operations.

They don't have radio com with the plane?

In reply to:
BSR section K, item 2.d states that all students are to be equipped with a functional automatic activation device (AAD) that meets manufacturer’s recommended service schedule (this is also mandated in FAA regulations, section 105.43.c).

They don't have ANY AAD on the student rigs???

In reply to:
BSR section K, item 2.f states that a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student’s weight be provided.

What does this mean? They putting all the students out under 300's, or are they using 170's on first time jump students?

In reply to:
BSR section K, item 2.g states that a freefall student must be equipped with a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute.

What kind of deployment system are they using, exactly??

In reply to:
FAA regulations, section 65.111 clearly sets forth the criteria as to who can and cannot pack a main parachute.

What are they doing to violate this?

In reply to:
FAA regulations, section 105.43 states that a reserve parachute must have been packed by a certifificated parachute rigger within 120 days before its use.

This one might piss off the FAA, actually.


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Oct 10, 2005, 1:22 PM
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Quote:
I think you are overreacting, IMHO.

I'm not sure I'm clear on how you can make the assumption that I'm over reacting since, up to this point, we are talking in hypothetical generalities.


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Oct 10, 2005, 1:32 PM
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Quote:
They don't have radio com with the plane?

Yes but its not manned.

Quote:
They don't have ANY AAD on the student rigs???

They have four or five Sentinel AAD's shared between approx. 15 student rigs. Some of the student rigs are not equiped to install an AAD. The AAD's are NEVER used on student rigs until the student reaches freefall status (static line course) which would normally be their 5th jump.

Quote:
What does this mean? They putting all the students out under 300's, or are they using 170's on first time jump students?

For example, a student with an exit weight of 230lbs, jumping a 270 sq ft canopy with a 180 sq ft reserve.

Quote:
What kind of deployment system are they using, exactly??

Leg pulls with vinyl pouches.

Quote:
FAA regulations, section 65.111 clearly sets forth the criteria as to who can and cannot pack a main parachute. What are they doing to violate this?

Unsupervised students packing for other students.


MakeItHappen

Oct 10, 2005, 2:18 PM
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I suggest calling the RD for the DZ in question.
I have a feeling the RD already knows about this.
I *think* this is a DZ that USPA is trying to get to comply with the rules and regs.

A couple of other comments:

It's ok for the radio operator to get a can of Coke during climb to altitude.

SL used to be considered an AAD. It's only the latest FAR revision that said they had to be on the reserve. The DZ may be a throw back dz to the early 90s and only a recent GM. It was ok then and probably still is today. Today's standards are higher than yesterday's.

On the students packing for other students. The 'supervision' part means that a rigger is available. It does not mean a rigger has to stand watch over each and every pack job.

I have a strong feeling that this dz is already being 'modernized' by the RD efforts.
It may take a bit of time, but that would be better than what the DZ has been doing.

It is better for USPA to open a dialog with DZOs and 'convert them' to modern standards than to toss them out and have them stay in an early nineties mode.

Call the RD.

PS-
About the Sentinels---
I do know of a rigger and former DPRE that would actually testify in court that it is negligent to use a Sentinel today, given all the other available AADs. Technically, you can use them, but from an industry standard practice, it's way below standards.

Given all the things you listed, I would ask for better AADs first before fixing the other problems. Sentinels actually meet all the rules.

.


nvanduyn  (A License)

Oct 10, 2005, 3:01 PM
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To not have an AAD on a student rig is just scary. If a student were to freak out, trying to remember everything, and loses altitude awareness...

splat



Crazy


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Oct 10, 2005, 3:03 PM
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Quote:
I *think* this is a DZ that USPA is trying to get to comply with the rules and regs.

How? By asking nicely? Are you saying they signed the gm 'pledge' knowing full-well they were in violation of it? Seems hollow to me.

Quote:
SL used to be considered an AAD. It's only the latest FAR revision that said they had to be on the reserve. The DZ may be a throw back dz to the early 90s and only a recent GM. It was ok then and probably still is today. Today's standards are higher than yesterday's.

The latest revision is 5 years old now. Not really an excuse anymore that the regs were changed. Just because it used to be OK and legal, doesn't mean it is OK to do it now.

Quote:
On the students packing for other students. The 'supervision' part means that a rigger is available. It does not mean a rigger has to stand watch over each and every pack job.

Actually, it does. In the latest revision, the FAA added the word "direct" preceding supervision. This is to clarify that the rigger isn't just supposed to available, but actually supervising.

"(a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger."

Quote:
I have a strong feeling that this dz is already being 'modernized' by the RD efforts.
It may take a bit of time, but that would be better than what the DZ has been doing.

The USPA considers it better to have a DZ violating FAR's and BSR's that is paying GM dues and requiring their jumpers to pay membership dues, than to have a DZ that is violating FAR's and BSR's? Hmmmm, figures.

Quote:
It is better for USPA to open a dialog with DZOs and 'convert them' to modern standards than to toss them out and have them stay in an early nineties mode.

The information is available to bring them out of the nineties, it doesn't take a RD to bring them that information. If they have not updated, and are not updating, it is by choice, not ignorance.

Derek


tombuch  (D 8514)

Oct 10, 2005, 3:25 PM
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In reply to:
PS-
About the Sentinels---
I do know of a rigger and former DPRE that would actually testify in court that it is negligent to use a Sentinel today, given all the other available AADs. Technically, you can use them, but from an industry standard practice, it's way below standards.

Given all the things you listed, I would ask for better AADs first before fixing the other problems. Sentinels actually meet all the rules.

.

It's my understanding that the Sentinels were all removed from service and can NOT be used. I remember this issue with another DZ many years ago. I believe the manufacturer (SSE?) stopped supporting the Sentinal, and forbid their use in the civilian market. 105.43(c) says "If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturers instructions..."

I would not even consider putting a student out (or jumping with a rig) equipped with a Sentinel unless the manufacturer has approved that use, and the AAD is maintained according to the manufacturer guidelines.

Many of the other issues seem equally serious. I'd call the regional director, and if that doesn't answer the question, contact Jim Crouch (Director of Safety and Training) at USPA. Following all that, I might even consider calling the FAA directly, given the AAD issue.
.


MakeItHappen

Oct 10, 2005, 6:24 PM
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In reply to:
It's my understanding that the Sentinels were all removed from service and can NOT be used. I remember this issue with another DZ many years ago. I believe the manufacturer (SSE?) stopped supporting the Sentinal, and forbid their use in the civilian market. 105.43(c) says "If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturers instructions..."

Going from memory here….
SSE withdrew (or recalled) the Sentinels, but then about a year later said they could be used, but would no longer be supported. That was around 1992 or so.

About 4-5 years ago, there was a student fatality that involved a Sentinel. The DPRE that did the investigation said the Sentinel fired and that it fired at x many feet. (I think x was between 1500 and 1000 feet. I'd have to go read the report again.)

Roger Allen told me that there was no way to determine firing altitude or even if it occurred on the jump in question.

The former DPRE said, and I think Roger said this too, that technically the Sentinel was legal, but from a modern technology, industry standard POV, the Sentinel was considered obsolete.

I definitely agree that Sentinels should not be used today.

.


MakeItHappen

Oct 10, 2005, 6:32 PM
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In reply to:
To not have an AAD on a student rig is just scary. If a student were to freak out, trying to remember everything, and loses altitude awareness...

splat

It not as hopeless as you make it out to be. At lot of us went through student status with no AADs or only had one on our first hop-n-pop.

It can be done. It is not encouraged nowadays.

.


MakeItHappen

Oct 10, 2005, 6:35 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Derek,

USPA is not a police agency.

It does not issue tickets or assess fines.

USPA does try to convince DZOs to follow modern training techniques.

If you have a problem with that, then join USPA, become a member of the BOD and change the policies.

I'm invoking the 'take your turn at bat' rule.
If you are not out there taking a turn at bat, where you can strike out or hit a home run, then you have no more pull than an irrate fan that's mad at a favorite player for striking out. Unless you are out there jumping and taking an active role in what goes on, your voice carries only in your own bathroom.
If you want change, get out there on the playing field.

.


(This post was edited by MakeItHappen on Oct 10, 2005, 6:48 PM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Oct 10, 2005, 7:11 PM
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Quote:
Hey Derek,

USPA is not a police agency.

It does not issue tickets or assess fines.

USPA does try to convince DZOs to follow modern training techniques.

They don't enforce their own rules. Seems to me it is because of a conflict of interest. GM DZ's are listed on USPA's website, giving the impression that they are 'endorsed'. They aren't, but from the wuffo's perspective, it looks that way. GM DZ's use that to their advantage in advertising, "DZ xyz isn't a GM DZ which means they don't have to follow the BSR's"

Quote:
If you have a problem with that, then join USPA, become a member of the BOD and change the policies.

I'm invoking the 'take your turn at bat' rule.
If you are not out there taking a turn at bat, where you can strike out or hit a home run, then you have no more pull than an irrate fan that's mad at a favorite player for striking out. Unless you are out there jumping and taking an active role in what goes on, your voice carries only in your own bathroom.
If you want change, get out there on the playing field.

I took a turn at bat. Example: Me: "XXX/DZO is doing AFF w/o a rating, I have video." RD: "What do you want me to do, take away a rating he doesn't have?" USPA doesn't care. Like you point out, they know DZ's treat the 'pledge' as a joke and they don't care. Just send'm a check. Who is looking out for the student's interests? No one. By the time they figure out that the DZ was violating the BSR's, it is too late and the cycle continues. Prime example: USPA lowering the standards to become an AFFI.

"I'm invoking the 'take your turn at bat' rule." is a copt-out. You wanted on the BOD, so did the other BOD's. Do your job and fix it. Quit making weak excuses why a DZ doesn't follow the BSR's/FAR's.

Derek


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Oct 11, 2005, 6:47 AM
Post #31 of 141 (1966 views)
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Quote:
It's ok for the radio operator to get a can of Coke during climb to altitude.

You seem pretty quick to come to the defense of a DZO with very few, if any, facts to back up your assumptions. When you have a DZ that is conducting first jump courses with a total of TWO staff members present, one of which is the chief instructor/S&TA/pilot and the other is the jumpmaster, who do you think is available to man the radio? (Much less conduct radio or some other form of ground communication with the students while landing)

Looking over the posts, there seems to be about a 70/30 split here, with 70% saying something needs to be done, and 30% saying ignore it or take your business elsewhere.


mark  (D 6108)

Oct 11, 2005, 7:07 AM
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In reply to:
[W]ho do you think is available to man the radio? (Much less conduct radio or some other form of ground communication with the students while landing.)

I do not know the specifics of this situation. More generally, though, there is a gap between what is legal and what is prudent.

Prudent would be a knowledgeable person on the ground, manning a radio link to the aircraft, and manning either the primary or back-up radio link to receiver-equipped students under canopy.

Legally, though, there is no FAR or BSR requirement for dz radio communication with the aircraft. The dz ground-to-air communication to the aircraft may be panels or smoke. If the FCC didn't mind, it could be cell phone. The person manning the ground-to-air communication does not need to have any ratings, and could be a whuffo, spouse or student. The FAA requirement is for contact with ATC. And there is no FAR or BSR requirement for student radios.

Mark


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Oct 11, 2005, 7:22 AM
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Quote:
Legally, though, there is no FAR or BSR requirement for dz radio communication with the aircraft. The dz ground-to-air communication to the aircraft may be panels or smoke.


BSR section H, item 3 states that manned ground-to-air communications are to be present on the dropzone during skydiving operations.

Again, speaking up for a DZO with little or no facts to back up your assumptions. One pilot, one jump master, two students, one experienced jumper, all in the same plane - who is manning the communications on the ground?! No one, no whuffo, no spouse, no student. Every warm body on the DZ is in the plane.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Oct 11, 2005, 7:39 AM
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In reply to:
Quote:
Legally, though, there is no FAR or BSR requirement for dz radio communication with the aircraft. The dz ground-to-air communication to the aircraft may be panels or smoke.


BSR section H, item 3 states that manned ground-to-air communications are to be present on the dropzone during skydiving operations.

Again, speaking up for a DZO with little or no facts to back up your assumptions. One pilot, one jump master, two students, one experienced jumper, all in the same plane - who is manning the communications on the ground?! No one, no whuffo, no spouse, no student. Every warm body on the DZ is in the plane.

Kevin:

I agree that every drop zone should have a ground radio that will reach the airplane, and every student should have a radio receiver for canopy control instruction. It doesn't always work out that way, although again it should.

If we go way back in time, there were no radios and students were "talked in" by bullhorn or a big arrow that somebody on the ground pointed in the direction they were to turn. Radios are far better. Some drop zones only use radios for the first few jumps, and some let the instructor jump with the transmitter and then talk the students down when he lands. It's not the best way to handle it, but it is "legal" under the BSR's.

There is no requirement for actual radios. A drop zone MUST have some way to communicate with the airplane, and that can be satisfied with smoke or a big fabric "X" that somebody pulls out to say "don't jump." That somebody could be a whuffo, or a non-rated skydiver. Again, that's not the best way to handle communications, but I believe it is legal under the BSR's.

A formal FAA radio to reach the airplane is a really good idea, and portables are only a few hundred dollars. Not every drop zone will have a "manned" base station, or even an available portable, but they are good ideas. Still, they are not required.

Several of your other issues seem far more serious to me. The radio isssue you write about strikes me as a reflection of a very poor safety culture, but not a violation in itself.
.


livendive  (D 21415)

Oct 11, 2005, 7:53 AM
Post #35 of 141 (1926 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
On the students packing for other students. The 'supervision' part means that a rigger is available. It does not mean a rigger has to stand watch over each and every pack job.

Actually, it does. In the latest revision, the FAA added the word "direct" preceding supervision. This is to clarify that the rigger isn't just supposed to available, but actually supervising.

"(a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger."

From the definitions at 14 CFR 105.3
Quote:
Direct Supervision means that a certificated rigger personally
observes a non-certificated person packing a main parachute to the
extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly, and takes
responsibility for that packing.

Blues,
Dave


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Oct 11, 2005, 10:13 AM
Post #36 of 141 (1892 views)
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In reply to:
To not have an AAD on a student rig is just scary. If a student were to freak out, trying to remember everything, and loses altitude awareness...

splat



Crazy

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hee!
Hee!
That was the norm when I started jumping back in the 1970s. I also remember the DZO telling me (a freefall student doing 15 second delays) "quit being such a wimp and give that AAD-equipped [chest] reserve to a firs-timer."
These days, 10-year-old Expert Cypres can be picked up for a song, ergo electronic AADs are inexpensive insurance.
Standards are slowly improving.


(This post was edited by riggerrob on Oct 11, 2005, 10:18 AM)


wmw999  (D 6296)

Oct 11, 2005, 12:08 PM
Post #37 of 141 (1867 views)
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Yep. An AAD (then called an AOD) was only required for my first freefall. After that, it cost $2 extra to rent a reserve with an AAD on it.

But I did have to buy an altimeter to do delays higher than 15 seconds -- any combination of counting and maneuvers was seen as being a dumb idea (and it probably is).

Wendy W.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Oct 11, 2005, 12:32 PM
Post #38 of 141 (1855 views)
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Quote:
Kevin:

I agree that every drop zone should have a ground radio that will reach the airplane, and every student should have a radio receiver for canopy control instruction. It doesn't always work out that way, although again it should.

i think he is saying there is no manned radio, no bull-horn, no smoke, no paddles, nothing. I.E. no manned communications.

Derek


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005, 12:37 PM
Post #39 of 141 (1851 views)
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>Looking over the posts, there seems to be about a 70/30 split here,
> with 70% saying something needs to be done, and 30% saying
> ignore it or take your business elsewhere.

I recall an incident a while back where I bought a new car (a Honda CRX) and it made a funny noise. I mentioned this to some bored government contractors at lunch one day. By the end of lunch they had diagnosed it (a power steering pump belt or bearing) come up with a quick fix (gummy stuff to spray on the belt) a permanent fix (return to dealer for warranty repair) a general theory on the issue (foreign cars suck) a general overall conclusion (it's these cruddy foreign cars that are destroying america) a grand strategy (they should tax all imported cars really heavily) and left satisfied they had solved the problem.

When I looked at it later, it was a leaf poking through the radiator shroud hitting the fan. I summoned up all my engineering education and experience and removed the leaf. Lo and behold it fixed the problem.

So it's great that people come to conclusions, but I've learned that often it's better to wait to see what the problem really is before deciding on a solution.


MakeItHappen

Oct 11, 2005, 1:11 PM
Post #40 of 141 (1841 views)
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In reply to:
You seem pretty quick to come to the defense of a DZO with very few, if any, facts to back up your assumptions. When you have a DZ that is conducting first jump courses with a total of TWO staff members present, one of which is the chief instructor/S&TA/pilot and the other is the jumpmaster, who do you think is available to man the radio? (Much less conduct radio or some other form of ground communication with the students while landing)

I threw in that Coke example because sometimes newer jumpers see stuff they think is a major safety gig, when it is not. You did not give specifics (at the time of my post) to indicate what type of things you had seen.

As others have said, there are no requirements to communicate with students under canopy. It's a good thing, but not mandatory.

It sounds like a very tiny Cessna DZ. Maybe the day you saw the un-manned radio was the day 3 people called in sick??? Is this a recurring problem? Maybe you can be 'on-call' for this dz when they are short-handed?
This is not 'defending' the dz, just asking questions about its operations.

About the packing (thanks Dave for the definition) - a rigger will hover over someone learning to pack. Once they are proficient, the rigger can go do other things as long as he's available to answer questions and it still meets the " Direct Supervision means that a certificated rigger personally observes a non-certificated person packing a main parachute to the extent necessary" requirement. You should come to the next PIA Symposium and hear the riggers hash this out.

I think the biggest problem the dzo faces is getting new AADs with an apparently small budget. Maybe you can help find some second hand AADs. The dzo could sell one or two rigs or increase prices to get a better AAD for some of the rigs. Then he could build some cash flow to replace the other AADs.

Is this DZ a Group Member?

GM or not, I think your best course of action is to contact the RD.

.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Oct 11, 2005, 1:46 PM
Post #41 of 141 (1823 views)
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Quote:
About the packing (thanks Dave for the definition) - a rigger will hover over someone learning to pack. Once they are proficient, the rigger can go do other things as long as he's available to answer questions and it still meets the " Direct Supervision means that a certificated rigger personally observes a non-certificated person packing a main parachute to the extent necessary" requirement. You should come to the next PIA Symposium and hear the riggers hash this out.

It doesn't say "is available", it says "personally observes" and "direct supervision". That means they have to watch the parachute being packed. The FAA changed the FAR specifically to address this. How can a rigger "personally observe" if they aren't standing there watching it being packed?

As for riggers debating the FAR's, LOL! Get rigger's opinons on who may alter a mainSly. The only opinion that matters is the FAA's.

Why does the USPA allow DZ's that violate the FAR's/BSR's to continue to GM DZ's? What about the pledge? What exactly does "self-regulate" mean? Do whatever you want and police yourself? Anarchy?

Derek


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Oct 11, 2005, 1:56 PM
Post #42 of 141 (1818 views)
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In reply to:
It sounds like a very tiny Cessna DZ. Maybe the day you saw the un-manned radio was the day 3 people called in sick??? Is this a recurring problem? Maybe you can be 'on-call' for this dz when they are short-handed?
This is not 'defending' the dz, just asking questions about its operations.

Yes, it is defending the DZ.

You're making excuses for a DZ who isn't obeing FARs and BSR's. You're suggesting students and customers volunteer their time to help a DZ obey the rules?

Quite frankly, that's astounding.

If the USPA isn't going to take a hard line on basic safety issues, how the hell is a low-time jumper supposed to?!?!?

_Am


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Oct 11, 2005, 2:00 PM
Post #43 of 141 (1814 views)
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Quote:
If the USPA isn't going to take a hard line on basic safety issues, how the hell is a low-time jumper supposed to?!?!?

Clearly USPA doesn't do anything except say they are breaking the rules and if you don't like it, you do something. Thanks a lot. This is one of the big reasons I quit skydiving. USPA is a joke.

Derek


MakeItHappen

Oct 11, 2005, 3:11 PM
Post #44 of 141 (1801 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
It sounds like a very tiny Cessna DZ. Maybe the day you saw the un-manned radio was the day 3 people called in sick??? Is this a recurring problem? Maybe you can be 'on-call' for this dz when they are short-handed?
This is not 'defending' the dz, just asking questions about its operations.

Yes, it is defending the DZ.

You're making excuses for a DZ who isn't obeing FARs and BSR's. You're suggesting students and customers volunteer their time to help a DZ obey the rules?

Quite frankly, that's astounding.

If the USPA isn't going to take a hard line on basic safety issues, how the hell is a low-time jumper supposed to?!?!?

_Am


Let me give you an analogy.

Say there is some newly minted A license holder that you happened to come across.
This jumper has 'not tracked off', 'pulled underneath others', ' did not wave off', 'cut someone off on final', 'did a low turn', etc, etc. He endangered himself as well as others.

Most jumpers would try and help this jumper out. A one-on-one jump, a mini-safety lecture, a tracking class etc

Very few jumpers would tell this jumper to 'get the hell out of here - you are a danger to us all and we don't want you.'

Now, with these DZs that are generally smaller, some people want USPA to just shout 'Get the hell out of here - we don't want you.'

Other people realize that with just the right amount of 'training' these dzs can be just as safe and viable as the big-wig hot shot dzs.

If you think helping a jumper is ok, then you should also think that helping a dz is an overall benefit to the sport.
It is the same social mechanism at work, just different customers.

.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Oct 11, 2005, 3:20 PM
Post #45 of 141 (1789 views)
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Quote:
Let me give you an analogy.

Say there is some newly minted A license holder that you happened to come across.
This jumper has 'not tracked off', 'pulled underneath others', ' did not wave off', 'cut someone off on final', 'did a low turn', etc, etc. He endangered himself as well as others.

Let me fix the anaolgy for you: Same jumper, knows he should wave off, track, etc, but doesn't care. Doesn't want to learn how to do that stuff and tells everyone he does know how to track and wave off and does on every jump. In fact he will sign something (pledge) to that effect.

I'm not helping someone that doesn't want help and lies about what they do and know and I'm not going to try and tell people that they are OK and just need some guidence.

Derek


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005, 3:29 PM
Post #46 of 141 (1782 views)
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>Same jumper, knows he should wave off, track, etc, but doesn't
>care. Doesn't want to learn how to do that stuff and tells everyone he
>does know how to track and wave off and does on every jump.

Now, Derek, you've been around skydiving long enough to know that that is EXACTLY what a lot of newbies do. "I can handle that canopy! I'm not incompetent." "I wasn't backsliding - the rest of the people were floating." "I am flat tracking!" I see these people every year at the WFFC; heck, I'm one of the people who volunteers to plan dives for them so they don't kill themselves by getting in over their heads. Most people have some compassion for these newbies, because many of them were that way themselves.

Jan's point that USPA tends to try to help GM's first is a good one, although I would also point out to her that there are times when you have to realize the carrot isn't working any more. Which they often realize; several GM's memberships have been pulled over the years for various reasons.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 11, 2005, 3:31 PM
Post #47 of 141 (1784 views)
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In reply to:
I'm not sure I'm clear on how you can make the assumption that I'm over reacting since, up to this point, we are talking in hypothetical generalities.

This sure as hell does not sound like hypothetical generalities to me. You are giving chapter and verse.

Quote:
If we are dealing with ONLY the violations I witnessed first hand, we can start with these...

BSR section H, item 3 states that manned ground-to-air communications are to be present on the dropzone during skydiving operations.

BSR section K, item 2.d states that all students are to be equipped with a functional automatic activation device (AAD) that meets manufacturer’s recommended service schedule (this is also mandated in FAA regulations, section 105.43.c).

BSR section K, item 2.f states that a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student’s weight be provided.

BSR section K, item 2.g states that a freefall student must be equipped with a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute.

FAA regulations, section 65.111 clearly sets forth the criteria as to who can and cannot pack a main parachute.

FAA regulations, section 105.43 states that a reserve parachute must have been packed by a certifificated parachute rigger within 120 days before its use.

It appears you may have a personal ax to grind in this deal. Is there more to this story that you are not telling us?

Sparky

No I am not defending the DZO, just wondering what the whole story is.


(This post was edited by mjosparky on Oct 11, 2005, 3:34 PM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Oct 11, 2005, 4:19 PM
Post #48 of 141 (1754 views)
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Quote:
to track and wave off and does on every jump.

Now, Derek, you've been around skydiving long enough to know that that is EXACTLY what a lot of newbies do.

Sure, but we aren't talking about a newbie. Sounds like this DZ has been around for at least a little while and you can;t convince me they don't know they are violating the FAR's and BSR's willfully. Then to sign the pledge that says they aren't breaking them.....I have no sympathy and USPA lets them do it.

You don't let newbies get away with that crap either.

Derek


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on Oct 11, 2005, 4:20 PM)


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Oct 11, 2005, 5:08 PM
Post #49 of 141 (1738 views)
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Quote:
This sure as hell does not sound like hypothetical generalities to me. You are giving chapter and verse.

Actually Sparky, if you take the thread in context, I was asked what kind of rules and regs were being violated. I listed a few, certainly not all, without giving any specifics about the nature of the violations. Nice try though.

Quote:
It appears you may have a personal ax to grind in this deal. Is there more to this story that you are not telling us?

This is a typical company-line response. Vilify the witness and take the attention off the accused. Sparky, you'd make a good trial lawyer. I suppose now, in self-defense, I'd have to call to the stand 20 or so eye witnesses to verify my testimony? LOL

I think we're missing the point here. The question is, what actions, if any, should be taken. This is not about putting a DZ out of business, its about correcting a problem and making our sport safer. If its acceptable for a DZ to violate BSRs then lets eliminate the word "rule" which implies that they are set forth by some authority for the purpose of being followed. Lets call them BSGs (basic safety guidelines) or, better yet, BSSs (basic safety suggestions).


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Oct 11, 2005, 5:57 PM
Post #50 of 141 (1708 views)
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In reply to:
This is a typical company-line response.

it's also a reflex response to particularly vigorous online complaints about a business, too. Over the past 10 years I've seen some real doozies, sometimes from fired employees.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Oct 11, 2005, 6:19 PM
Post #51 of 141 (2700 views)
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If he was trying to trash the DZ, wouldn't he name the DZ?

Derek


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 11, 2005, 11:08 PM
Post #52 of 141 (2660 views)
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In reply to:
Actually Sparky, if you take the thread in context, I was asked what kind of rules and regs were being violated. I listed a few, certainly not all, without giving any specifics about the nature of the violations.

I believe I did take the thread in context. And you listed more than a few giving specifics and nature. In post 14 you state:

Quote:
If we are dealing with ONLY the violations I witnessed first hand, we can start with these...

BSR section H, item 3 states that manned ground-to-air communications are to be present on the dropzone during skydiving operations.

BSR section K, item 2.d states that all students are to be equipped with a functional automatic activation device (AAD) that meets manufacturer’s recommended service schedule (this is also mandated in FAA regulations, section 105.43.c).

BSR section K, item 2.f states that a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student’s weight be provided.

BSR section K, item 2.g states that a freefall student must be equipped with a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute.

FAA regulations, section 65.111 clearly sets forth the criteria as to who can and cannot pack a main parachute.

FAA regulations, section 105.43 states that a reserve parachute must have been packed by a certifificated parachute rigger within 120 days before its use.

Then you go on to say in post #21:

Quote:
I'm not sure I'm clear on how you can make the assumption that I'm over reacting since, up to this point, we are talking in hypothetical generalities.

Followed by post #22 where you list 5 more very specific items.

Quote:
It appears you may have a personal ax to grind in this deal. Is there more to this story that you are not telling us?

Sparky

No I am not defending the DZO, just wondering what the whole story is.

I have already stated I am not defending the DZO. If you read some of the threads I have posted to I think you will find I am all for safety. But you seem to be very defensive when asked a simple question. Is there more to the story then what we have heard? There are usually 2 sides to every issue and we have only heard your side.

Sparky


goose491  (A 7123)

Oct 12, 2005, 6:52 AM
Post #53 of 141 (2620 views)
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In reply to:
Nice try though.

Just what is your problem Kevin? What is with your attitude? Your definately looking for support here... but you do not tell the whole tale and get all defensive when asked to?

In reply to:
I think we're missing the point here. The question is, what actions, if any, should be taken.

Well then bro, you got your answer. Didn't have to wait long.. it was in post number 2!

Now, you realise you have posted a question in a DISCUSSION forum which means you may get what you are looking for out of it, but others may feel the need to DISCUSS. If you don't want to share the details, then don't... but don't be rude about it man.

I'd like to know more details too as I beleive you have some personal agenda as well. It's not the end of the world if you don't tell me though, so don't go losin' it.

Nick


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Oct 12, 2005, 10:08 AM
Post #54 of 141 (2577 views)
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You're suggesting students and customers volunteer their time to help a DZ obey the rules?

Quite frankly, that's astounding.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That is the way the good old boys did it in the good old days when clubs dominated the sport.
Everyone donated their time and labor to pack student mains, scrounge second-hand radios, etc.
Some of those good old boys are still DZOs, doing things the same way they did back in the 1970s.
Their USPA Regional Director probably knows what is going on, and probably gently teases them about "getting with the '80s," but unless an outsider is willing to put up substantial cash, things will only change slowly.
Maybe the RD knows that the good old boy's son plans on taking over the DZ in another year or two - meanwhile the young lad is busy earning ratings - and expects things to improve after his son takes over, but all this takes time.
Sometimes it is better to have a backward DZ "in the system" and gently encourage them to improve.
USPA politics are far more complex compromises than you can imagine.
People who love sausage and laws should never see them made.


(This post was edited by riggerrob on Oct 12, 2005, 10:15 AM)


tombuch  (D 8514)

Oct 12, 2005, 10:22 AM
Post #55 of 141 (2570 views)
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In reply to:
You're suggesting students and customers volunteer their time to help a DZ obey the rules?

Quite frankly, that's astounding.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That is the way the good old boys did it in the good old days when clubs dominated the sport.
Everyone donated their time and labor to help repack student mains, scrounge second-hand radios, etc.

'Back in the day' skydiving was organized into self supporting clubs for the benefit of the members. These days most drop zones are commercial operations organized to generate a profit that is returned to an owner. Do you think I should assist the salespeople at a local shoe store just to be nice? Should I volunteer time at my local lawyers office to help his paying clients? Should I swing by the grocery store and stock shelves to make things easier and cheaper for the corporate owners?

Times have changed. If you jump at a club where everybody shares in the decision making and profits, then by all means volunenter to help out. If you jump at a commercial center owned by an individual or corporation, let them know what your needs are and then stand back and be a customer.

Corporate drop zones are responsible for their own marketing, operations, and profit. That's not my job as a customer.

Let's not confuse the olden days with today.

.


ClubANON

Dec 3, 2005, 2:37 PM
Post #56 of 141 (2426 views)
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Well, I'm gonna dig this old thread up. For the sake of my buddy Kevin.

I'm probably the most non biased person you'll get to reply on this from the DZ in question. I personally like the DZO, but do find many of his practices pretty damn scary.

I have spent just about every weekend for the past year and a half at this DZ. So I see what goes on week in and week out. I've talked to people who jump elsewhere that used to jump there. I've also saw many people jumping there when I first started who have moved to different DZ's. He seems to chase a lot of people off....and these usually are the ones who bring up safety issues.

Kevin has brought this up with the best of intentions. We've talked about it, and he is genuinely concerned for the students that jump there. For licensed jumpers (with their own gear) this place is fine. The plane is kept in very good condition...landing area is sufficient, etc. The only issue is the student part of the operation. He cuts far too many corners IMHO. That said...I'm one of those that tries to help out the DZO, I do this because I also am concerned for the students that jump here.

The AADs he uses probably scare me the most. My younger brother jumped there for his first 16 jumps. Had a cutaway on his 4th because he had an extremly hard opening and it jammed the toggles between the risers and slider grommets. And on a later jump had a sentinel fire at around 600 ft or so. The good thing in this situation is it didn't really work very well. It pulled the pin partially....and not completely until he landed....which popped the pin the rest of the way out, and out came the reserve pilot chute. It was good that it didn't function properly in this situation....but if actually needed....this would have been a fatality. Which goes back to why it fired in the first place?? MY brother probably weighs 150 tops....jumping a 240 sq ft canopy. But said DZO blamed it on him....said he should have stopped doing spirals at 1500 ft. Which is funny because I've got the whole thing on video....and he'd stopped spiraling long before 1000 ft., which is where they are set to fire. I didn't really get upset...no harm no foul is the way I usually am. And my brother continued jumping...I'm just bringin up some of the specifics people seemed to want to know on here.

Radio is where I helped out when I could. The DZO is extremly short handed....and this is his own doing...at one point he had plenty of instructors....but ran two of them off....which leaves him and ONE instructor. No other coaches or anything. Around 100 (I have just under 200 now) jumps for me I started radioing students down...not because I'm really all that comfortable with it...but because if I didn't do it...no one would. So me radioing them down is MUCH better than nothing. There have been days I was jumping, and there was no one on the ground with panels, smoke, anything...just what the student learned in the class. Which is fine if the student truly paid attention....which we know students probably don't always do. There have been 2 or 3 broken legs I've seen because of no radio and obvious inattention in the FJC. So I have little sympathy for these guys...even though with radio maybe the outcome would have been different. Hey its a high risk sport S**T happens. But still.

Packing is also a M-Fker here....Okay I personally think packers are Gods gift to skydivers like me who hate packing and are lazy. And I think the FAA should go and leave us the hell alone on this issue. But what he is referring to isn't packers not being supervised...its students with less than 10 jumps being shown how to pack once or twice and then left on their own 9 times out of 10. The biggest issue I have here is after a student is left to pack his own rig while he said he wasn't comfotable yet. This happens countless times....probably just about anytime a student gets more than 5 jumps here. And is probably the #1 reason students drop off....It almost caused me to quit as a student here. I was shown how to pack 2 times.....around jump number 7 and 8. Then was left to do it on my own....and being the typical student this freaked me the hell out...as it does just about everyother student this happens too. After the two lessons....I was left totally unsupervised....and when asking the DZO and instructors to look at my packing....was told I was being to paranoid....go finish up...or ignored. Okay fine I came through okay...maybe this is why I hate packing Laugh. But on several other occasions students have voiced their concern...been told to get over it (slightly more politely said than that) and go finish packing. Only to make the jump and have a cutaway....and then told they were just ultra paranoid and didn't give the canopy proper time to open....this happened once while I was doing radio and scared the S**T out of me. Guy exits at 3500 ft....has a streamer for a good 10-15 seconds...I end up yelling "cutaway" over and over into the radio before he finally does. This is on static line with NO AAD BTW. When the student lands him and I are told we were over reacting...it was only 6 or less seconds and he need to cough up an extra 100 and something odd bucks cause he dropped his handles. So student packs a streamer after asking for help, and being denied...I'm doing radio just to help....and were both told we were wrong. Unsure

Also....reserve canopies grossly undersized.....240 lb or so students jump 170 or 180 sq ft reserves....the main is a good 270+. One incident had a student not jumping for a few weeks because of a very hard landing under one of these reserves....because of a hard pull out of a Vynl leg mounted pilot chute pouch. Which are too small usually and have no give....this is because the containers are 20 yrs old....and the spandex or whatnot has gotton worn out and he just used some bit of material he had lying around to make a new one.

Okay this is the last I'll say on this already freakishly long post. Reserves. We aren't usually talking about a month or so out of date reserve...some of the puppies haven't been packed in a year or more. Okay fine, they'll probably still open, but come on the DZO is a friggin master rigger! Some of these have reserve pilot chutes that are shifted so much that they look to be about to bust out of the side of the container. And they aren't even pencil whipped most times....go grab a reserve repack card and you'll find a date from 2004 on that joker. And another thing that was pretty humorous......packing reserves after having a few beers. Seen this happen several times. Good friend of mines brand new G4...first time its ever been packed...and he's downing another miller lite......stabbing at it with a rusty old screw driver...I'm sure the screw driver isn't hurting anything with the chute...but its a brand new rig...come on go find a non rusty one at least! But the killer is he forgot to hook the RSL up....and is trying to get the temporary pin back in under the pin...using his trusty (rusty) screw driver. This is already after putting a cypress in another rig back ass wards!

Okay this was a freakishly long post. But Kevin really has the students at heart. He has no personal vendetta with the DZO...he actually likes the guy except for this stuff. He's said so many times. I really like the DZO and the dropzone. I'll continue to jump there...because of the next DZ being 3 hrs away. Plus I will pick up the slack where I can...try and keep bitching at him to change somethings around....and picking up a radio when they have no one else. But I see the other side. I've seen things that scared me...but I wasn't gonna say anything...Kevin felt he had an obligation...at least morally to do something. He wants feedback on what other people would do. He doesn't want to see the place shut down...just some things to change. I do too...but would be too selfish to say anything. I don't want to drive 3 hrs. Thats cold and stupid maybe...but it's the truth. Like I said...I spend lots of time out here...am friends with the DZO....eat out with him just about every weekend. Stay chatting for hours after jumpings ended. Drink some beer with him. Tell him he needs to get some new AAD's, rigs, and switch some reserves around...and to quite chassing instructors off. I think I can handle his B.S. better than most. I don't care what kinda stupid crap he says....I deal with it most days at work anyway! LaughWink.

P.S. To all the jumpers that I'll probably here from that still jump there (the ones that love him Wink)...I'm not hiding behind a fake name because I will print this joker out and show him myself Cool. I've said most of these things to him...just on my regular profile its got the DZ as my home DZ. Probably would have been stupid to post with that one! PM me if ya like Laugh! See you guys at the DZ.


(This post was edited by ClubANON on Dec 3, 2005, 2:51 PM)


SwampThing  (D License)

Dec 3, 2005, 4:28 PM
Post #57 of 141 (2399 views)
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In reply to:
To all the jumpers that I'll probably here from that still jump there (the ones that love him )...I'm not hiding behind a fake name because I will print this joker out and show him myself . I've said most of these things to him...just on my regular profile its got the DZ as my home DZ. Probably would have been stupid to post with that one! PM me if ya like ! See you guys at the DZ.

Quote:

Then why bother to post it at all?

Why so vague about who and where?

If these are factual and legitimate concerns, ring the bell and point the finger!
I have NO RESPECT for someone that "Hides" behind a fake name to make accusations. If you have something to say, say it and stand behind it!
Your post is basically meaningless dribble without identifying both yourself and the person / people you're blowing the whistle on.


(This post was edited by SwampThing on Dec 3, 2005, 10:03 PM)


ClubANON

Dec 3, 2005, 9:30 PM
Post #58 of 141 (2365 views)
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I'm not blowing the whistle on anybody. Another jumper was trying to figure out whether or not he should. People were saying he seemed to be out to get the DZO. I enjoy jumping at the place. Its close to home and I like the people who jump there. Including the DZO. So I have a conflict of interest...sort of. I like the DZO and everyone jumping at the DZ. I just disagree with the way things are being run. I only jumped in to back up what the other poster Kevin was talking about. Not hiding behind a fake name. My names Jordan....Anybody at this DZ or firmilar with it will know who I am.

MY profile however, has the DZ on it. So if someone "blows" the whistle...it won't be me. They can make that decision. I've already made mine. So if you have no respect for that...fine. The post was a lot of rambling. I tend to do that. But hey....I feel I got my point across.....My buddy has a base for his claim.


SwampThing  (D License)

Dec 3, 2005, 10:02 PM
Post #59 of 141 (2355 views)
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In reply to:
....Anybody at this DZ or familiar with it will know who I am.

Quote:

How about your skydiving brothers & sisters that AREN'T familiar with your name , or the place.
People that may want to know if a certain operation is being run unsafe, and stay away during their travels.

If the reserves are a year out of date, the rigger drinks while rigging, all of the comments you made
are valid concerns, that should be brought out in the open so we all can decide if we want to jump there.

But then again, you KNOW all these things and choose to continue there, so how bad can it really be?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 3, 2005, 10:03 PM
Post #60 of 141 (2352 views)
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Re: [SwampThing] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

>But then again, you KNOW all these things and choose to continue
>there, so how bad can it really be?

There is a difference between a dangerous student program and a dangerous dropzone for experienced jumpers.


SwampThing  (D License)

Dec 3, 2005, 10:26 PM
Post #61 of 141 (2342 views)
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In reply to:
>But then again, you KNOW all these things and choose to continue
>there, so how bad can it really be?

There is a difference between a dangerous student program and a dangerous drop zone for experienced jumpers.

Quote:

I might have to agree to disagree with you on that one. The student program is usually the bread and butter of most drop zones, especially smaller ones. If it's being run that sloppy, it surely HAS to carry over into other areas. An unsafe operation is an unsafe operation.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 3, 2005, 10:32 PM
Post #62 of 141 (2336 views)
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Re: [SwampThing] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

> If it's being run that sloppy, it surely HAS to carry over into other areas.

I don't think that's true. I have seen (fairly) safe DZ's with terrible student programs. Basically the primary issue with a DZ for an experienced jumper is the aircraft/pilot; I know at least one DZO who is a pilot and takes good care of the plane because he flies it, but just doesn't care much about the student operation because he jumps rarely if at all.


skydiverjerry  (D 9092)

Dec 3, 2005, 10:50 PM
Post #63 of 141 (2331 views)
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i have read all the posts about three times,

now if all that is said is true and you stand by your word and all are facts not just ax grinding then you should not be ashamed of your identity or the identity of the drop zone.

you have a moral responcibility to promote safe practice and ensure that those around you are not placed in unnessesary danger.

you have several opptions.

report the facts to uspa. if this does not bring about improvments in safety as you see it. have photographic evidense to make your case.

report the facts to FAA. if this does not bring about improvments in safety as you see it.

your very last opption is dangerus but you could
use the media,

one more choice you have is to inform the dzo of your plan, send it in writing and invite him to sit and talk about it. he may ban you from the dz but you may make him change his opperational practices.

just a thought here though skydiving allready suffers from bad press every time there is a fatality, we are allready acused of not policing the sport,
choose wisly dont be political or unjust, if you use the facts and only the facts you will help make the sport and your home dz safer.

good luck.


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 3, 2005, 11:30 PM
Post #64 of 141 (2319 views)
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now if all that is said is true and you stand by your word and all are facts not just ax grinding then you should not be ashamed of your identity or the identity of the drop zone.

you have a moral responcibility to promote safe practice and ensure that those around you are not placed in unnessesary danger.

Quote:

I couldn't agree more.


stratostar  (Student)

Dec 4, 2005, 7:00 AM
Post #65 of 141 (2290 views)
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Re: [skydiverjerry] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

Good in theory, mate.
However, have you ever turned in a DZO to the USPA or the FAA ?
I got news for you dude, the USPA is a joke and nothing but a good old boys club and if you say or write anything they don't like your then on the shit list for life and all the higher up's turn a blind eye and have for years.
Maybe if we vote out all the ex golden douchebag's from office
then the USPA would have a lot less covering up of the truth about DZO's who blatantly bust FAR's and BSR's.

As for the fed's, they really don't care about some damm jump op's after 9-11 they have more important things to deal with
and don't care if we kill ourselfs, they only care if we kill some one on the ground falling on them.

With that said if more people who knew about all of this stuff wouldn't turn a blind eye because they don't want to be banned or lose friends, we would be safer.
But it's like drugs, no one wants to rat out thier dealer cuz then they have to find the fix elsewhere and if all the dzo's stick together and ban jumpers who speek up, where you going to get your fix? well there is always base jumping or starting you own DZ.

Go ahead tell the USPA and FAA I'll bet after you turn off the main road and take a ride on this street you'll wish you never had taken that turn off the main road and kept your blinders on !
And be ready for EVERYONE to say "you have some personal agenda "

~


(This post was edited by stratostar on Dec 4, 2005, 7:10 AM)


NickDG  (D 8904)

Dec 4, 2005, 8:05 AM
Post #66 of 141 (2269 views)
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>>Radio is where I helped out when I could.<<

I'll assume what you are saying is true. I'll also assume you don't have an Instructor rating. If that's true please don't talk students down on the radio. It may seem like a simple thing that any reasonably experienced up-jumper could do but if something wonky happens it can take experience with students to know what the right thing to say is.

Also, by "helping" you are enabling this DZO in shortchanging his students. Yes, I read the part about if you didn't do it, no one would (big shudder) but in the long run you're exposing yourself to a liability issue and keeping this guy in business.

The place to start would be talking with your Regional Director, but I also agree with the poster that said USPA is sometimes non-responsive to these things.

Maybe it's time for more peer pressure from within the ranks. We all have to eat the soup this DZO is spitting in so let's start a group of vigilante Instructors (The Midnight Eyes) who go around and have "talks" with DZOs like this.

PM me the DZ name and maybe Airtwardo (the enforcer) and I will go undercover, sit through his first jump course, and if it is as you say we'll rip him a new one . . .

NickD Smile
BASE 194


(This post was edited by NickDG on Dec 4, 2005, 8:07 AM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 4, 2005, 2:24 PM
Post #67 of 141 (2215 views)
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In reply to:
PM me the DZ name and maybe Airtwardo (the enforcer) and I will go undercover,

You 2 under cover, I gotta see this. Tongue

Sparky


sweep  (B 104268)

Dec 4, 2005, 2:58 PM
Post #68 of 141 (2207 views)
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Quote:
I'll assume what you are saying is true. I'll also assume you don't have an Instructor rating. If that's true please don't talk students down on the radio. It may seem like a simple thing that any reasonably experienced up-jumper could do but if something wonky happens it can take experience with students to know what the right thing to say is.

I agree that it is important to know how to deal with students, and that this is not just something that any "reasonably experienced up-jumper could do", and also that helping to run a dodgy operation is not a good idea.

But I'm not convinced that a full Instructor's rating is necessary for student talkdown. Certainly in the UK, the regs require a B licence and a Ground to Air Radio Operator's licence. Beyond that it is at the discretion of the local Chief Instructor as to who they are prepared to delegate that part of their responsibility to.

I don't have an Instructional rating yet but I did begin to learn Student Radio Talkdown from not that long after I achieved my B licence. Originally this was under direct supervision of an Instructor until I had demonstrated that I could do it, then I was allowed to do it on my own.

However, I do consider my role to be solely to do the talkdown - I don't get involved in debriefing the students in any way beyond "did you enjoy that" and similar conversation. Any comments I have to make on canopy control etc are relayed to the Instructor (out of the student's earshot) to put forward as part of his overall debrief.

Personally I think that, if carried out responsibly and properly taught this can be a good introduction to working with students and either a stepping stone towards an Instructional Rating or a way to stay involved with the Student program for those who don't want or aren't able for whatever reason to go all the way.

Of course in the event of a malfunction or similar there is a lot of responsibility to say the right thing (or more importantly not to say the wrong thing) but that is something that can be trained for to an extent, and beyond that it is down to experience - and everyone has a first time. But the personal qualities that are involved in remembering the plan, avoiding panic and giving good advice don't necessarily only magically arrive when you get an Instructor rating.

Just my opinion,


Sweep


(This post was edited by sweep on Dec 4, 2005, 2:59 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 4, 2005, 5:03 PM
Post #69 of 141 (2183 views)
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In reply to:
Personally I think that, if carried out responsibly and properly taught this can be a good introduction to working with students

The key phrase being "properly taught". I got the impression they just grabbed anyone available. When "properly taught" you become an instructor.

Sparky


skydiverjerry  (D 9092)

Dec 4, 2005, 8:50 PM
Post #70 of 141 (2140 views)
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Re: [stratostar] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

hi there

every thing on dz.com is theory as we dont know the name of the drop zone or the dzo.

that is why it is pointless to post annon


SwampThing  (D License)

Dec 4, 2005, 9:01 PM
Post #71 of 141 (2139 views)
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Re: [skydiverjerry] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

The dropzone in question has to be the one in Chickasha Oklahoma. It's a small 182, club type DZ.

I've been there. Seemed like a nice place and well run from what I could tell, but I didn't pay much attention to the student end of the operation.


sweep  (B 104268)

Dec 5, 2005, 1:33 AM
Post #72 of 141 (2107 views)
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Quote:
The key phrase being "properly taught". I got the impression they just grabbed anyone available. When "properly taught" you become an instructor.

I agree with you it sounds like they grabbed anyone available.

IMHO you are only an instructor if you hold an official, approved Instructor Rating of some kind, and my post was that you can be properly taught to do talkdown without being a full Instructor.

In other words it wasn't in response to the situation at this DZ but more to the post which urged people not to do talkdown at all unless they were instructors.

Sweep


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 5, 2005, 9:31 AM
Post #73 of 141 (2045 views)
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In Canada you need a minimum of a Coach 1 rating before you can talk students down by radio.
Then you usually talk down a dozen or more students - while being closely supervised by a senior instructor - before you are allowed to talk them down on your own.


(This post was edited by riggerrob on Dec 5, 2005, 9:37 AM)


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Dec 5, 2005, 5:17 PM
Post #74 of 141 (1977 views)
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Quote:
now if all that is said is true and you stand by your word and all are facts not just ax grinding then you should not be ashamed of your identity or the identity of the drop zone.

I know this was directed at Jordan, but I gotta field this one. If anyone was just out "ax grinding" (be it myself, Jordan, or anyone else who has jumped at this DZ) wouldn't we have mentioned the name of the DZ right off the bat? I'm certainly not ashamed of my identity. If you are a licensed jumper with your own equipment you'd be in absolutely no danger at this DZ. The BSR violations all deal with students and student operations, with the exception being the drinking while packing reserves (just make sure your rig is already repacked and up to date BEFORE you arrive).

If you're an up-jumper planning on jumping in Oklahoma and want to avoid this drop zone, PM me and I'll be more than glad to tell you. But, like I said, unless you're a student or in need of a reserve repack, you have nothing to fear.

-Kevin


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Dec 5, 2005, 5:22 PM
Post #75 of 141 (1972 views)
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Quote:
And be ready for EVERYONE to say "you have some personal agenda"

Amen to that brother!! LOL Care to count how many times in this thread I've already heard that?? Tongue

-Kevin


RayLosli

Dec 5, 2005, 9:41 PM
Post #76 of 141 (2367 views)
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After reading the accusations of You-Kevin (pimp daddy) Made of his DZ being a poorly run and a menace to Jumpers physical well being. I would be TRULY interested with the opinions of other jumpers with a few more years of experience and jump #'s who skydive there. before making any decision of blatant Negligent Safety of jumpers.
Kevin you sound REALLY pissed off. I will tell you something when Looking back to the time when I myself had 75 jumps. I did not know my Ass from a hole in the Ground.
But Hey Now, look at you. All grown-up now. Quoting Regs. and passing judgment of your DZ's operations. I would be really interested in you posting some hard facts of what the Injury rate is there or even death rate @ YOUR DZ in question. Which is ? and WHO runs it ?
Now this is only my opinion but that list of petty self-inflated infractions is nothing and with only 75 jumps. You do not know enough to lay judgment on any DZ operations. No DZ or jumper likes a Nark and If this thread you started is not for a Troll....Shocked. (i smell Troll). Then you are well on your way to being Branded just that. If you don't like things there on that DZ then Hey like stated before in a post. "You are a paying customer." so maybe you better Move-On. If you are not happy then maybe attach your Newly Acquired jump skills and new found ethics of a sport and life style you have only started to dip your Big Toe in.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
exnavykds:
If we are dealing with ONLY the violations I witnessed first hand, we can start with these...

BSR section H, item 3 states that manned ground-to-air communications are to be present on the dropzone during skydiving operations.

BSR section K, item 2.d states that all students are to be equipped with a functional automatic activation device (AAD) that meets manufacturer’s recommended service schedule (this is also mandated in FAA regulations, section 105.43.c).

BSR section K, item 2.f states that a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student’s weight be provided.

BSR section K, item 2.g states that a freefall student must be equipped with a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute.

FAA regulations, section 65.111 clearly sets forth the criteria as to who can and cannot pack a main parachute.

FAA regulations, section 105.43 states that a reserve parachute must have been packed by a certifificated parachute rigger within 120 days before its use
.
.
Man That List really cracks me up..........Laugh
Hey, What's your Hard-Core Statement @ the end of all your Posts ?
exnavykds:
"Don't give me those pussy-foot, girly landings. I wanna' land like I live, hard and fast. It’s not a man's landing unless you break something or you can pick grass outta your teeth afterwards!"

.
Now that sounds a little loose and fast with your safety & Saftey of all other jumpers around you. Maybe your should slow down a little before you have to much fun and hurt yourself. Sounds like you need to Harden-Up a little Tiger or Move On.
.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Dec 6, 2005, 6:24 AM
Post #77 of 141 (2340 views)
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In reply to:
But Hey Now, look at you. All grown-up now. Quoting Regs. and passing judgment of your DZ's operations. I would be really interested in you posting some hard facts of what the Injury rate is there or even death rate @ YOUR DZ in question. Which is ? and WHO runs it ?

I can't quote an injury or death rate at any DZ I've ever lived at, and I have "been around the block". I certainly don't expect someone new to the sport to be able to do this. The allegations are clear violations, and now they've been backed up by different people.

I was hoping when I first read these accusations that the DZO would have taken the criticism and addressed the concerns. It seems clear that he hasn't.

What's even more amazing is that it seems this DZ has had the attention of the USPA for some time, and even they have been unable to bring change. That's pathetic. What the hell is the point of the Group Membership if there's no downside to clear violations?

We're fortunate that there are people willing to step forward and shine a light on stuff like this. I for one appreciate it.

_Am


(This post was edited by AndyMan on Dec 6, 2005, 6:25 AM)


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Dec 6, 2005, 6:56 AM
Post #78 of 141 (2333 views)
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Quote:
I would be really interested in you posting some hard facts of what the Injury rate is there or even death rate @ YOUR DZ in question.

How would you propose we accurately do that when the DZO doesn't submit incident reports? I could state that I witnessed three broken bones in a two week time span, (four days of jumping) but I'm sure you'd say that was a fluke or an anomaly, right? And do you really suggest we measure the safety of a DZ by its "death rate"? If this is the mentality of EXPERIENCED jumpers then it's no wonder DZ's like this one are allowed to continue.

Quote:
Man That List really cracks me up..........

So what part makes you laugh the most? That students are jumping without AADs? That 240lb. students are jumping with 180 reserves? That the student rigs don't have BOC pockets? That students with 5 jumps are packing, unsupervised, for other students? That reserves are often 12 months or more between repacks? I admit, I have a pretty twisted sense of humor too but, try as I might, I just don't see it.

The main division here seems to be between those who see the BSRs as "rules" and those that see them as a loose set of guidelines.

Quote:
Kevin you sound REALLY pissed off.

That may be true, but its the result of the indifference shown from those few who seem to care more about a negligent DZO than the students he endangers. If your heart is truly in the right place, then act like the sky-god you claim to be and go check it out for yourself. Go observe a class of first jump students in action. Look over the equipment. Talk to one of the former instructors who now refuses to teach there. PM me and I'll give you the phone numbers of EXPERIENCED, D-licensed jumpers who have, like me, moved on to other DZ's, of riggers who have seen this DZO's work first-hand, or the FAA themselves who just completed an investigation of this drop zone based on "numerous complaints from multiple sources".

But really, what does it matter? In your eyes I'm the villain here. I'm comfortable with that. I'd rather be the villain pushing for a safer dropzone than a complacent, indifferent up-jumper who's not concerned about the well-being of students.

-Kevin


wmw999  (D 6296)

Dec 6, 2005, 7:48 AM
Post #79 of 141 (2317 views)
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Many of the things (not all of them) cited were the norm on dropzones in the 1970's (I was jumping for 5 years in the 1970's). I certainly didn't use AADs on my static line jumps; I packed my own main (although I did have more lessons), the DZs with radio or other guidance for students in the air were few and far between, students were put out students on reserves that would be uncomfortable to land (24' or 28' rounds), and all students jumped old ragged-out gear.

We didn't lose a lot of students that way. I only personally saw one student fatality in the 1970's. The way it's done now is definitely better, but a lot of those protections are against low-likelihood incidents, so he's not likely to see the impact on his students.

That said, telling the DZO that it's unsafe is going to get a rise out of him -- he also remembers when that was the norm, and he probably didn't lose students then either. You can't tell him it's unsafe, but you can tell him there are better ways. So the way to approach from the outside is through the USPA, an ASO, or something like that.

From within, it'd be a matter of figuring out what you can change yourself in the program as a matter of being on the staff -- a packing class program would be a great start, since that seems to be a heavy hitter. Then maybe work with guiding students down, or finding a rigger who can put BOCs on the student gear inexpensively.

As long as he doesn't have a student fatality or injury that's directly related to his gear and methods, he's not likely to see the error of his ways. You can help him to see better ways by actively helping him, or you can call down the authorities.

Wendy W.


(This post was edited by wmw999 on Dec 6, 2005, 8:01 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 6, 2005, 7:58 AM
Post #80 of 141 (2316 views)
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Re: [RayLosli] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

If what I'm reading is what you are saying...it's offensive.

I can understand your want for "more experienced" input, but...

To belittle someone for jump numbers is bad enough but to invalidate his observations too?

Reeks of skygod, to me.

exnavykds posts seem pretty knowledgeable about what's going on. What's 75 jumps got to do with this?

How about some positive support or comments? Or even some contructive criticism instead of a blatant dismissal.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 6, 2005, 9:21 AM
Post #81 of 141 (2302 views)
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Re: [exnavykds] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

>How would you propose we accurately do that when the DZO doesn't
> submit incident reports?

VERY few DZ's do.

>I could state that I witnessed three broken bones in a two week time
>span, (four days of jumping) but I'm sure you'd say that was a fluke
>or an anomaly, right?

The injury rate at JFTC was higher than that. Whether or not that's a problem depends on whether it happens consistently.

>And do you really suggest we measure the safety of a DZ by
>its "death rate"? If this is the mentality of EXPERIENCED jumpers
>then it's no wonder DZ's like this one are allowed to continue.

Not even that's always valid. Perris is a pretty safety-conscious DZ, and there will be spates of 2-3 fatalities in a year, then a few years with zero deaths.

>That may be true, but its the result of the indifference shown from
> those few who seem to care more about a negligent DZO than the
> students he endangers. If your heart is truly in the right place, then
> act like the sky-god you claim to be and go check it out for yourself.

There's a lot of 'talking around' this DZ. If you truly feel that this DZ has serious safety issues, identify it. If you don't really feel that way, then make that clear.

>But really, what does it matter? In your eyes I'm the villain here. I'm
> comfortable with that. I'd rather be the villain pushing for a safer
> dropzone than a complacent, indifferent up-jumper who's not
> concerned about the well-being of students.

From my perspective, you're complaining without offering anything; you're not even identifying which DZ it is. So you are having as much effect as the guy you're complaining about, which is none.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 6, 2005, 9:41 AM
Post #82 of 141 (2293 views)
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I agree...please let me know which DZ so I can at least make an informed decision as to whether or not I want to jump there, at least....PM if that makes you feel more comfortable.


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Dec 6, 2005, 11:53 AM
Post #83 of 141 (2267 views)
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Quote:
From my perspective, you're complaining without offering anything; you're not even identifying which DZ it is

If my intent were to shut the guy down or grind an "ax" then it would have made sense to identify the DZ in the very first post. As I said before PM me and I'll be happy to tell you (any of you). But, unless you're willing to go there and see for yourself, to help persuade the DZO to update his equipment and training methods then naming him here would only look like a personal attack, don't you think?

All that aside, I've learned a lot from the input here. Thank all of you very much. I appreciate the advice and the constructive criticism.

-Kevin


stillalive  (D License)

Dec 6, 2005, 2:45 PM
Post #84 of 141 (2240 views)
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Re: [mattjw916] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

BSRs aren't laws, like HnS said, if you don't like what goes on, leave.

In reality, most paid packers aren't riggers and aren't supervised.

In reality, reserves get pencil-packed a lot. Personally, I always follow the rules on this one.

--------------------------------------------------
Scary, but mostly INDIGNANT.
Leave the DZ and go to anotherone is what any knowledgable and wise skydiver would do, specially if the things going on interfere with personal ethics.

Most of the BSRs mentioned maybe except for the "ground-air radio communication", do not affect the licensed skydiver nor anyone who owns their equipment.
It is the inocent "ignorant to the sport" first time jump student, which is suited up and attached to a backpack full of plates or an old patched up 170 with NO AAD!!!
Most students know little if anything about regulations and are not obligated to be on "the look out" or constantly suspicious about DZ management.

So YES if your experienced and notice violations leave...
And YES BSRs are not laws,, but I think the world would be a safer place if they were.

It is sad to read that nothing can be done about it and that there's no one to turn to.


RayLosli

Dec 6, 2005, 7:43 PM
Post #85 of 141 (2193 views)
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popsjumper:
..."To belittle someone for jump numbers is bad enough but to invalidate his observations too?"
,,,,,,,,,,,

Any & All Jumpers have the right to take control of His or Her own Safety @ a DZ no matter what there level of jump #'s.
Dude I'm not trying to belittle him as much as you Think. Plain Fact is it just pissed me off. The guy has 75 jumps and is trying make it sound like His Own DZ is a Death Trap by Roundabout, Back-Hand Accusations of Gross Neglect of Jumpers and Student Jumpers Safety by His Own DZ.
To just throw that SHIT out in the public Forum under the Disguise of ( Seeking Advice For Safety ) & ( what should I do ? ) is Bad Conduct & pretty fucking Lame.
Also the biggest Fact that you are not looking @ is that This HUGE analysis and Judgment call of unsafe behavior of the DZ. Is only made in the Time Period aim.of What ? His first year or less of Training of Free-fall skills.Fact is the Guy Has 75 jumps and is setting himself up as the Looking-Eyes of what is the Proper & safe way to Run a DZ and the Basterd is barely off AFF or Static-line.
It would be a rarity if @ that level of Skydiving. That he can barely keep himself alive Skydiving while having fun at the same time. Let alone grasp what is, Safe Conduct for Operations of a Working Drop Zone.
also: The guy calls himself, Pimp-Daddy in his profile.......Laugh
.................

popsjumper:
..."Reeks of skygod, to me."
.
Far from it buddy! So lets get one thing Perfectly Clear.
I just put a Rig on and do One Jump @ a time. With the Goal, to be Alive & Smiling when I Land a Canopy. like everybody else out there doing the same thing as Me with Thousands of Jumps more than I
.
I also Know that I Hold no big importance in the World of Skydiving. I only know that Skydiving is Important to Me. So Please don't be a fucking Idiot and call me a SkyGod.
For-Sure I can be a Cocky mother fucker but I have few more jumps Than Pimp-Daddy Kevin there does. I also got a few more acquired jump skills and Knowledge to back my mouth-up.
So because of this small amount of Skydive Knowledge I have acquired over the years. I have Learned NOT to throw out Half-Assed Accusations of unsafe business practices of My Drop Zone.or ANY Other Drop Zone I have ever Jumped at .Especially in Public Chat Forum open to any fucking Non-Jumping ass-hole in the world out there to Gaze at.
but Hey in my opinion It doesn't take a SkyGod to see that this guy is full of Shit.
.


jloirsdaan  (C 35569)

Dec 6, 2005, 9:00 PM
Post #86 of 141 (2176 views)
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Re: [RayLosli] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, pretty pissy there aren't we. Sound like someone pissed all over your cornflakes!

Since I only have 175 jumps, I'm sure you'll throw that right back up in my face. But hey, I couldn't give less a crap if you have 50000 or 5! If you see something unsafe at a DZ...speak the f**k up. So Mr. Skygod (they have a song for you in the bonfire)...since with your wisdom you think it is okay to go against the BSRs and what not....you should partner up with the DZO...you and him would make good business partners. Even though, he doesn't get as pissy and whiney as you. Crazy

So this guys full of shit huh....well maybe he should go and get everyone else that'll back him up. I just happened across this thread....without him ever telling me of the B.S. going on here by some posters. There are many jumpers out there that have left this DZ because of the student operations...and some like me....that turn a "blind" eye to his operations for the convenience of how close it is to home. I don't want to drive 3 hrs to the next DZ every weekend.

Kevin is a good guy, with genuine concern for the students. Seeing as we were both students here....and didn't know any better....its kind of unsettling to know what TINY bit of knowledge we do know...and look back at our student training and think WTF! So sense it takes 5000 or so jumps to know what is and isn't safe....I'll shut up and take in what the great and all mighty skygod says next! Laugh

Oh yeah, and Pimp Daddy there....figure out WTF a nickname means before you go being a jackass. Bonehead makes a helmet called PIMPDADDY....wow imagine that...I wonder why a skydiver would have that name.....Couldn't find a helmet that he liked that fit.....found the PIMPDADDY.....got the helmet and the name stuck..... Hes 40ish....cool ass dude.....but I think we (jumpers at the DZ) started calling him that. I'm 21...makes a little more sense right?? Mad


(This post was edited by jloirsdaan on Dec 6, 2005, 9:03 PM)


RayLosli

Dec 6, 2005, 9:35 PM
Post #87 of 141 (2161 views)
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Re: [jloirsdaan] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

I like you........Wink
So tell me what you really think ?
.
edit to add:
Damn girl, you were Whining so hard I thought I was reading My Own writing.
.


(This post was edited by RayLosli on Dec 6, 2005, 9:38 PM)


jloirsdaan  (C 35569)

Dec 6, 2005, 9:39 PM
Post #88 of 141 (2156 views)
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Re: [RayLosli] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

girl.....Shocked....that looks like a dude in the picture there??CoolLaugh


RayLosli

Dec 6, 2005, 10:13 PM
Post #89 of 141 (2146 views)
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fuuuuuuck sorry bout that......Blush
I threw my contacts out for the night.
.
also edit to add:
Ok I will rephrase that.
I guess I can still like you somewhat. even though you are not a Chic....Shocked. because I am secure in my Manhood. and I will restate.
Damn, Dude you were Whining so hard I thought I was reading my own Writing !
.


(This post was edited by RayLosli on Dec 6, 2005, 10:20 PM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Dec 7, 2005, 12:30 AM
Post #90 of 141 (2136 views)
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In reply to:
Please don't be a fucking Idiot

In reply to:
For-Sure I can be a Cocky mother fucker but I have few more jumps Than Pimp-Daddy Kevin there does.

Calling someone "a fucking idiot" is more than being cocky, it gets real close to arrogance. You need to chill or take it to SC.

Sparky


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Dec 7, 2005, 6:46 AM
Post #91 of 141 (2109 views)
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Re: [mattjw916] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
BSRs aren't laws

Rule: An authoritative, prescribed direction for conduct, especially one of the regulations governing procedure in a legislative body or a regulation observed by the players in a game, sport, or contest.

If we're going to call them rules (BSRs) then lets treat them as such. Otherwise, lets call them BSGs (guidelines) or BSSs (suggestions).

Quote:
In reality, most paid packers aren't riggers and aren't supervised.

Thats absolutely true. But, in this case, we're not talking about paid packers. We're talking about students with 5 or 6 jumps packing, completely unsupervised, for other students.


RayLosli

Dec 7, 2005, 8:21 AM
Post #92 of 141 (2089 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

 
but Mommy he Started it First. He called me a SkyGod. (you can't see me but) There is a tear in my eye. because my feelings are hurt also.
I will say .."I'm sorry.".. first. If that will make you Feel Better Sparky......Frown
.


goose491  (A 7123)

Dec 7, 2005, 8:22 AM
Post #93 of 141 (2089 views)
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In reply to:
Calling someone "a fucking idiot" is more than being cocky, it gets real close to arrogance. You need to chill or take it to SC.


Last time I checked (I don't go there often), calling someone a "fucking idiot" isn't acceptable in SC either Unsure

Rays just going to have to chill or log off.


goose491  (A 7123)

Dec 7, 2005, 8:25 AM
Post #94 of 141 (2087 views)
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Re: [RayLosli] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

<<but Mommy he Started it First. He called me a SkyGod.>>

You are being a skygod.

You have nothing to offer but negative comments about the poster and how you feel his voice should not be heard because he doesn't have the experience you require from a speaker (read: typer)

You should just log off and leave this thread to people that give a damn about the safety of all jumpers.

Nick


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 7, 2005, 8:59 AM
Post #95 of 141 (2075 views)
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Re: [exnavykds] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope you are still reading this thread..

So far, posters have given you some positive actions that you can take..with note that some of them could be unproductive or damaging to you...
-------------

Start by asking local instructors why they are not following BSRs

Your S&TA should be spoken to

USPA BSR violations should be reported to your USPA Regional Director

FAA regulation violations should be reported to your local FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO).

Reporting violations is dangerous political ground.
Tread cautiously.

One more choice you have is to inform the dzo of your plan, send it in writing and invite him to sit and talk about it. You can help him to see better ways by actively helping him.

You can take your business elsewhere.

You have a moral responcibility to promote safe practice and ensure that those around you are not placed in unnessesary danger.

(Starting) a packing class program would be a great start

Good luck to you.

The thing that concerns me most is the impact of all this on the student-level jumpers. They may be getting into situations that they don't know yet how to prevent, control, respond to, or handle...somewhat like an incident looking for a place to happen.


RayLosli

Dec 7, 2005, 9:29 AM
Post #96 of 141 (2069 views)
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Re: [exnavykds] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me ask a few civil questions here before I run off to the job for a few hours.
you say:
" Thats absolutely true. But, in this case, we're not talking about paid packers. We're talking about students with 5 or 6 jumps packing, completely unsupervised, for other students."
.........
Is there a Ticketed Rigger on site @ this DZ ?
Do you think a DZ should have a Ticketed Rigger standing and looking over shoulder at every move when There Packers are packing all the student Rigs, Mains and Tandems Mains from there Days Work ?

Are you saying that These students are Packing Canopy's Without Monetary-$ compensation. ?
Do they Just Pack canopies for Fun or because they just need the Practice ?
Are these Student Packers that are Packing students Main's.without a Rigger looking over there Should. Getting Compensated with Jump Tickets for there Work ?
Because if they Pack for FREE-$$. Then I am going to Jump @ Your DZ...........Wink
.


jloirsdaan  (C 35569)

Dec 7, 2005, 9:55 AM
Post #97 of 141 (2061 views)
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Re: [RayLosli] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

No they are usually packing the parachute they just jumped. Which in and of itself is fine. If you know what you're doing...then no, I wouldn't think a rigger needs to be standing over your shoulder. I think the FAA should go F**K itself on that rule with the packers.

However....students with 5 jump who have been shown how to pack once....shouldn't be packing their own rig without supervision. It was said earlier...that when packing....if a student "bothers" one of the instructors...he's usually told to to quite being paranoid and go finish packing. I had this happen to me, and see it continue to happen. I know several students who have dropped off because of not being comfortable packing their rig. Also...these students are expected to pack the rig after they jump. Then, if they aren't jumping again...put it back on the shelf. Then put on a first jump student again the next weekend. This has resulted in at least one malfunction very recently.

Hope that clears something up....Paid packers are GOOD!!!! Students packing with out supervision....early on BAD!!


(This post was edited by jloirsdaan on Dec 7, 2005, 9:56 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 7, 2005, 10:43 AM
Post #98 of 141 (2034 views)
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Re: [goose491] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

>>He called me a SkyGod.>>

>You are being a skygod.

All of you cut it out.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Dec 7, 2005, 10:52 AM
Post #99 of 141 (2034 views)
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Re: [exnavykds] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Rule: An authoritative, prescribed direction for conduct, especially one of the regulations governing procedure in a legislative body or a regulation observed by the players in a game, sport, or contest.

If we're going to call them rules (BSRs) then lets treat them as such. Otherwise, lets call them BSGs (guidelines) or BSSs (suggestions).

BSR stands for Basic Safety Requirements. Many of them are waiverable. See Section 2.1 of the Skydiver's Information Manual for details. I believe the waiverability of the BSR's is also discussed in this month's Parachutist.

In reply to:
. But, in this case, we're not talking about paid packers. We're talking about students with 5 or 6 jumps packing, completely unsupervised, for other students.

Are they getting paid? If so, they're paid packers.

I used to know an 11 year old who packed student rigs. She had no jumps. She was a damn good packer. Someone who didn't know who was who at the dz might have thought she was competely unsupervised, but she wasn't - she'd been taught what to do and she knew who to talk to if she had a question or problem.

The FAR regarding who can pack a main parachute does not say that a packer must have done any skydives. It does say that if you're packing for someone other than yourself you must be a rigger or be supervised by a rigger. The definition of "supervision" is a big grey area, but from what I've seen it's most often defined as "a rigger on premises and available for questions/to provide assistance."


skydiverjerry  (D 9092)

Dec 7, 2005, 11:00 AM
Post #100 of 141 (2025 views)
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Re: [billvon] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

well said bill.

lets end this thread on a positive note, a skydiver asked a question and it was answered by lots of people with differing points of view.

it is now up to that person to make a desicion based on the advice here and his own personal experience in life.

non of use has the right to force him to accept what he has seen as acceptable nor do we have the right to force him to take our advice.

a forum is a place to offer help, provide advice listen / read learn and enjoy.

if we can not speak in a civil manner to our skydive brethren here then this sight will not have much of a future.

debate and discusion only works with the right of free speach in a civil environment. lets try to remember that.Wink


jloirsdaan  (C 35569)

Dec 7, 2005, 11:05 AM
Post #101 of 141 (1873 views)
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Re: [skybytch] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

I very much agree, I've seen people who have never jumped pack just fine....as well as younger kids. Thats fine and awesome in fact!! Packers are Gods gift to skydivers like me!!

These guys aren't getting paid....they are packing the rigs they jumped. Which is fine and necessary. But they are usually only shown once or maybe twice and expected to do it on their own without supervision everytime after that. Thats also fine if they get it...which most don't seem too. The DZO usually isn't very receptive to them asking for help or pointers...in fact he gets quite aggravated with them often times. Also, they pack the rigs when they are through jumping for the day...and them put them back on the shelf to be jumped another day by what usually turns out to be a first jump student...and as I said before...a malfunction requiring a cutaway was the result after one such incident where the student stated several times he/she wasn't comfortable packing. Which goes back to another issue....no AAD's used at all for static line jumps, which this one was.

Hope that clears up the situation a bit.


(This post was edited by jloirsdaan on Dec 7, 2005, 11:09 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Dec 7, 2005, 11:12 AM
Post #102 of 141 (1865 views)
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Re: [jloirsdaan] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

If they are packing the rigs they just jumped then who's to say they are going to necessarily be the same one's to jump it on the next jump it is used??

Just an observation/question based on one of your earlier statements you seem to be continuing with here.

-Grant


Airgump  (D 29909)

Dec 7, 2005, 11:17 AM
Post #103 of 141 (1863 views)
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Re: [RayLosli] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

i started skydiving at the DZ kevin is talking about and have seen some of the things going on that he is refering to.

one 'incident' that comes to mind happened when i passed through this particular DZ after completing AFF out in perris and headed to the ranch in NY on Easter weekend last year. The DZO (also pilot of the 182), a static line FJS, his jumpmaster and myself were all loaded up in the aircraft in front of the hanger. on start-up the aircraft backfired several times resulting in a fire in the engine compartment. everybody un-assed the A/C with the FJS deploying his main canopy and he departed. all those that were in the plane ran for fire extinguishers located in the hanger while the DZO was pulling engine cowlings loose. not one single extinguisher was found to be in working order. i ended up putting the fire out with 2 liter bottles of Mountain Dew. the next attempt to take the A/C to altitude resulted in the engine quiting halfway down the runway. (lucky for all involved that it didn't quit on takeoff or we'd all have been dead.)

eventually it was determined that the DZO used a water hose to wash out an old steel tank he was intent on using for fuel storage (previously a steel 55 gallon barrel was in use for fuel storage) and didn't equip the tank with any kind of sump to trap/drain any water that could migrate into there. (makes me wonder what kind of pre-flight is being done on the A/C before jump activities begin.)

that weekend was the last time i ever set foot on that DZ. this is just one instance that i witnessed while there.

kevin, you're right to be upset about what is going on there. from jumping with you at another DZ, i know that safety is 'job one' with you. let your fellow jumpers know and do what you have to towards letting others know, then find a home DZ that cares about your basic safety.

blue ones, bro!
gump


jloirsdaan  (C 35569)

Dec 7, 2005, 11:19 AM
Post #104 of 141 (1862 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

I went back and edited to add that in the earlier post...but they aren't always jumping the one they just packed....it often ends up being jumped (with the same pack job) by a first jump student.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Dec 7, 2005, 11:48 AM
Post #105 of 141 (1850 views)
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Re: [jloirsdaan] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But they are usually only shown once or maybe twice and expected to do it on their own without supervision everytime after that.

That's how I learned to pack. And the DZO would get quite aggravated with me (and others) at times when we asked him for help. So we asked other people. In the real world (ie not the FAA's worldWink) it doesn't take a rigger to help someone pack a main or answer a question about packing a main.

I don't see that the dzo is doing anything "illegal" or unsafe in this area. Anyone can pack a mal, doesn't matter if you've packed one main or ten thousand. Even riggers have packed mals. It's part of the sport; sometimes parachutes don't operate as they were designed to. I don't think that paying the money (whether for a student jump/gear rental that includes the pack job or for their own rig to be packed) means that the main pack job is guaranteed to work. It just means it's packed. So I don't see a problem with having students packing student mains.

In reply to:
Which goes back to another issue....no AAD's used at all for static line jumps, which this one was.

None of the static line rigs where I learned/taught even had AAD's. The dz had a waiver from USPA for this; they were using the direct bag s/l system, which can be considered in and of itself a form of AAD (direct bag is where the bag is not attached to the main but is attached to the static line).


jloirsdaan  (C 35569)

Dec 7, 2005, 12:09 PM
Post #106 of 141 (1838 views)
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Re: [skybytch] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

I am going to probably get flamed for this. No disrespect meant to ANYONE just an observation I have.

Seems a lot of the "older" jumpers...people who have been in the sport 10+ years....I'd go as far to say 15+...are always saying "this is how I learned, I survived and am fine." Well, my question is....there are proven and safer way of doing things now in the year 2005. So because it worked for you....it didn't work for everyone back then. The fatality rate seems to have been much higher...at least ratio wise.

So it worked for you, but should we not go with the safer way of doing things now that they are available? AADs aren't there to open mains...they are there to open the reserves as a absolute last resort....and this malfunction happened on a static line jump. So he cut it aways. No what are we relying on? A students first jump.....hopefully he will have paid attention....he obviously did...cutaway, and pulled the reserve just fine. But what if he'd been a idiot and hadn't paid attention....because he's a moron is he supposed to bounce?? Just seems to me that lots of people seem to have this opinion...."it worked for us." But there are safer ways of doing things. I'm not saying we should or could be 100% safe...nor am I saying require everyone to use AADs etc. I don't have one on my rig. I will, just haven't gotten one yet. But students I think, should be and are the exception. We should take every means necessary and available to make their induction into our sport as safe as possible. Then off of student status they can make there own conscious decision.

I ramble a lot and hope this comes off the way I intended. I have the upmost respect for the pioneers of the sport and those who came before me. I just get that a whole lot and doesn't make sense to me.....


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 7, 2005, 12:32 PM
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I ramble a lot and hope this comes off the way I intended.

Quote:

It's coming off in the right way.

You guys are smart and you see things that aren't right...and you care enough to comment.

I think part of the discussion is aimed more toward HOW the situation is being handled....a lot of us "Old Guys" are telling you what we 'would' have done, or what could be done...

You guys that are jumping at this DZ can take it
from there, I know the DZO your talking about and he seems like a reasonable guy.

Somebody with his email addy, link this to him...I'd bet you'll see some changes.

It's ALL good!Wink



Oh~ and edited to add:

I once heard someone ask D-1, "What's it like to be a 'Sky God'."

His answer...."When I meet one, I'll ask!"Cool


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Dec 7, 2005, 12:38 PM)


jloirsdaan  (C 35569)

Dec 7, 2005, 12:37 PM
Post #108 of 141 (1824 views)
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Thanks. I work nights here...its 2337....almost Thursday. Pointless info there.....

I sit here on DZ.com lots....read through stuff....can't get enough!! Only way I can really keep in "touch" with the sport.

Well, that and have my rig sent out here to me....theres about an 600-800ft tower just behind the camp.......CoolWink. Way off point...but figured I'd explain why I am kind of rapid fire with the replies.


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 7, 2005, 12:39 PM
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Currently In Iraq

Quote:

Stay low and don't bunch up....just get back here safe okay!Wink


jloirsdaan  (C 35569)

Dec 7, 2005, 12:43 PM
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Okay, thats the plan!Wink.....175 jumps....need to make at least 1000 to be happy. And in the know LaughLaughWink. Joking.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Dec 7, 2005, 1:43 PM
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In reply to:
Seems a lot of the "older" jumpers...people who have been in the sport 10+ years....I'd go as far to say 15+...are always saying "this is how I learned, I survived and am fine."
<snip>
I just get that a whole lot and doesn't make sense to me.....

You'll "get that" a lot, and not just from those who've been jumping 10, 15, 20 years. I've seen the same reasoning used by jumpers with 1, 3, 5 years in the sport to encourage new jumpers to purchase gear that's beyond their current ability ("I flew a 1.3 wingloading at 30 jumps and I was fine; you will be too").

It can also be a bit frustrating to have 10, 15, 20 years of experience and have somebody with 1, 2, 3 years in the sport telling them their experience is wrong.

Personally, I think there is a lot to be said for the way people who learned to jump 15, 20, 25 years ago were taught. There was less handholding going on - jumpers were taught from the start that it was up to them to save their own life, because it was and it would continue to be once they had a license. Skydiving wasn't marketed as Disneyland so fewer people who just maybe shouldn't leave an airplane in flight would think to go do it. But that's off topic, I'll STFU on that one.

Back to the point I had hoped to get across in the last post -

What is the purpose of an AAD? To get a canopy over a jumper's head if/when they cannot, correct? A direct bag static line system does that.

The only situations I can think of where a student on the dope rope would find himself in freefall would be if the static line wasn't hooked up (which is why s/l students are generally told to check it before exit) or if the static line had to be cut (ie if the student was in tow). In either case, the student has been trained to pull the reserve ripcord.

The rigs had RSL's as well, so if the student cutaway a main and didn't pull the reserve he'd probably survive.

The section of the BSR's that requires AAD's for student jumps is waiverable by the full USPA board of directors. If it was that unsafe for students in certain situations to jump rigs without AAD's, it would be non-waiverable.

In reply to:
We should take every means necessary and available to make their induction into our sport as safe as possible.

I agree with you, and I think every jumper out there, regardless of how long they've been jumping, would agree as well.

I do not agree that not having AAD's on certain student rigs is unsafe.


wmw999  (D 6296)

Dec 7, 2005, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
Seems a lot of the "older" jumpers...people who have been in the sport 10+ years....I'd go as far to say 15+...are always saying "this is how I learned, I survived and am fine."
I didn't get that impression at all from most of them (I'm assuming I'm one of those old farts). However, since there is no skydiving police to call who will lock him up or regulate him or take him to court, whipping up a lot of righteous indignation won't do anything to help the situation, which is a substandard student program. Really. I was just trying to tell you why it won't work so well to simply tell him it's unsafe.

It's less safe -- not actively unsafe, but definitely less safe. Everyone has a risk level they're willing to accept, and obviously his risk level is higher than is standard now. But if you just tell him "you're unsafe" he'll disagree, and no one will get anywhere, because, again, there really aren't any skydiving police, and none of his students have died.

You can call the FAA to come look at reserve data cards or aircraft maintenance records. But, again -- do you want the DZ to close, or to simply start doing business by a book from the late 20th century instead of mid-century? He won't "see the error of his ways." He can be led to a better way, but getting him to admit he sucks and you were right all along probably isn't going to work. And it won't when you try it on a wife sometime either (or a husband, or a kid -- I've tried it TongueCrazy).

Wendy W.


jloirsdaan  (C 35569)

Dec 7, 2005, 3:57 PM
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and replys to skybytch too....Why do I feel wrong writing thatLaugh!jking

Well, without all the testostermoe....the ladies come off with very good points!! I really wanted to avoid implying "old farts" sorry if it came off that wayUnsure. In fact....from your picture Wendy...you'd never convince me that you have 30 yrs in the sport Wink.

I also wasn't knocking the way the sport WAS taught. It most definitely did work. In fact, I very much agree that skydiving isn't for everyone...and sometimes the wrong people try it. It would in fact, be better if most students did come in knowing how dangerous skydiving really can be. That'd probably weed out those who needed weeding out!

The point I was getting at, wasn't that anybodies training was wrong...or flawed...or that we even do it better now. IMHO I just think if there is better and more proven safety equipment out there....we should use it. Yes, it was done relatively safe before...but why not keep striving to make it safer?

On the other hand, I am very much against anyone but skydivers stepping in to regulate and make rules...so I'd be very hesitant to involve the FAA. In fact I wouldn't involve anyone....because I like the DZO and the location...which we all pretty much like the guy and the operation....just not the student part. That is what I've been trying to do.....constructively tell him some things I observed....and usually I get blown off (maybe cause I don't know shit with 175 jumps Laugh). Fine, I was just writing thoughts...and backing claims up. I've seen the things he takes shortcuts on....and the way he runs things...I also spend a lot of time at another GREAT DZ....and this is probably where I started seeing the differences and asking questions. I've seen how a stellar DZ is run (IMO). But hey, I love grabbing a beer at the end of the day and listening to the "old farts" tell stories. To hear our sports history.

You're also right, I see the very same thing with idiots like meWinkLaugh....that have less than 5 yrs in the sport try and convince newbies that they'll be fine on this or that, etc. And I'd be quick to tell them to STFU and send the student to an instructor...or S&TA!

Hope I made that a little more clear. (even though I probably just made it worse Laugh).


Andy9o8  (D License)

Dec 7, 2005, 4:16 PM
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In reply to:
What is the purpose of an AAD? To get a canopy over a jumper's head if/when they cannot, correct?


Correct, or if/when they DO NOT, out of fear-freeze, which is not unheard of in a first-jump student.

In reply to:
A direct bag static line system does that.
It does indeed. Of course, whether that canopy malfunctions is another matter.

In reply to:
The only situations I can think of where a student on the dope rope would find himself in freefall would be if the static line wasn't hooked up (which is why s/l students are generally told to check it before exit) or if the static line had to be cut (ie if the student was in tow).

Or, if the student has a cutaway.

In reply to:
In either case, the student has been trained to pull the reserve ripcord.

Yeah, but it can be anticipated that some first-jump students will freeze & not follow their training.
I learned on S/L with direct bag. If I'd needed to cutaway on any of my student jumps starting with #2, I think I'd have done just fine. But on my first jump? -- whew, I'm really not sure, maybe, maybe not. I was completely frozen and greyed-out from the hop off the step until the canopy opened (at which point I was fine).

In reply to:
The rigs had RSL's as well, so if the student cutaway a main and didn't pull the reserve he'd probably survive.

Agreed. Of course, there's a small chance the RSL will be disconnected.

In reply to:
The section of the BSR's that requires AAD's for student jumps is waiverable by the full USPA board of directors. If it was that unsafe for students in certain situations to jump rigs without AAD's, it would be non-waiverable.

That presupposes that the people who make the rules, and permit them to be waivable, are not fallible human beings. But of course, they are. They are also replaced through attrition. That's why rules evolve over time.

In reply to:
I do not agree that not having AAD's on certain student rigs is unsafe.

Agreed; however, I do think that AAD's on those student rigs is probably even safer than not (but I'm open-minded to be told otherwise by those more knowledgeable than I am).


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Dec 7, 2005, 5:19 PM
Post #115 of 141 (1758 views)
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Quote:
I hope you are still reading this thread..

I am Pops, thanks Smile

Quote:
Start by asking local instructors why they are not following BSRs

The DZO has only one instructor left, the rest have quit and gone elsewhere. The one that's still there stays because he can't afford to go anywhere else. He knows that if he rocks the boat he won't be instructing there for long. I had already spoken to him about what was going on.

Quote:
Your S&TA should be spoken to

The DZO IS the S&TA

Quote:
USPA BSR violations should be reported to your USPA Regional Director

Done.

Quote:
FAA regulation violations should be reported to your local FAA Flight Standards District Office

Done.

Quote:
You can take your business elsewhere

Done.

Quote:
You have a moral responcibility to promote safe practice and ensure that those around you are not placed in unnessesary danger

I couldn't agree more. I'm thankful to everyone here who took the time to post and share with me their thoughts and ideas.

Kevin
POPS 9791, CSA 696


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Dec 7, 2005, 5:32 PM
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Quote:
BSR stands for Basic Safety Requirements. Many of them are waiverable.

Even better! A Requirement implies that it's REQUIRED unless waived. They're not being waived. They're being disregarded, violated, short-cut and ignored.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Dec 7, 2005, 9:14 PM
Post #117 of 141 (1726 views)
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In reply to:
Correct, or if/when they DO NOT, out of fear-freeze, which is not unheard of in a first-jump student.

Nor is it unheard of in an "experienced" jumper. None of us know how we will react to an emergency situation until it happens to us. Some of us find out early. Others find out later. We all hope that we'll react as trained (or how we've drilled), we all tell ourselves we'll react as trained (or how we've drilled), but incident reports show that not all of us do.

In reply to:
Or, if the student has a cutaway.

If the student cuts away, the RSL will deploy the reserve. I can't think of any reason for an RSL to be disconnected on a student rig other than carelessness. Are you saying that the dz in question routinely puts students out with disconnected RSL's? That I would call a safety issue.

In reply to:
That presupposes that the people who make the rules, and permit them to be waivable, are not fallible human beings. But of course, they are. They are also replaced through attrition. That's why rules evolve over time.

Yes, the USPA board members are fallible human beings. As are all skydivers, regardless of their years in the sport, number of jumps, number and type of ratings, etc, etc. If someone feels strongly that the current board isn't doing the job, the process for running for a seat isn't all that difficult...

I hope no one thinks I'm supporting the dzo in question by my responses here. I know nothing about the dz or how they operate. My goal here is to point out that some of what you may be seeing may not be as dangerous as you think it is.

For those who've actively tried to change things that they feel are unsafe at the dz in question (or at any dz for that matter), good on ya for giving a shit. This sport can always use more people who care about safety enough to say something.

But as important as saying something is the ability to listen to explanations and the open mind needed to consider them.


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Dec 8, 2005, 6:04 AM
Post #118 of 141 (1702 views)
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Quote:
not one single extinguisher was found to be in working order. i ended up putting the fire out with 2 liter bottles of Mountain Dew

I've talked to other DZOs, S&TAs, Instructors, Pilots, and Riggers around the state (and even in Dallas), they all seem to have a horror story concerning this DZ.

Quote:
the next attempt to take the A/C to altitude resulted in the engine quitting halfway down the runway

I said earlier that I thought the place was relatively safe for licensed jumpers with their own equipment. I may have to rethink that.

Thanks Gump for your input.

-Kevin


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 8, 2005, 8:58 AM
Post #119 of 141 (1678 views)
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>I can't think of any reason for an RSL to be disconnected on a
>student rig other than carelessness.

Or accident, per the student who had his RSL disconnect during a cutaway at Perris many moons back. After that incident, Perris put AAD's on the reserves too.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 8, 2005, 9:02 AM
Post #120 of 141 (1677 views)
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Re: [jloirsdaan] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

>Seems a lot of the "older" jumpers...people who have been in the
> sport 10+ years....I'd go as far to say 15+...are always saying "this
> is how I learned, I survived and am fine." Well, my question
> is....there are proven and safer way of doing things now in the year
> 2005. So because it worked for you....it didn't work for everyone
> back then. The fatality rate seems to have been much higher...at
> least ratio wise.

On the other hand, often us "old" jumpers who started 15 years ago have already seen that great new idea tried, and had it fail or not work much better than the old way. But then a new jumper comes along and says "you know, we should do X!" So you say "well, we tried that, and we discovered Y." They say "Figures, old jumpers want to live in the past."

There are many, many ways to train students, do RW, freefly, land canopies etc. A great many of those ways have been tried. Some work, some don't. The way we used to do it wasn't perfect; the way we do it NOW isn't perfect. But the 'old' ways often were as proven (in many cases more so!) as the 'new' ways.


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Dec 8, 2005, 5:36 PM
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Quote:
then a new jumper comes along and says "you know, we should do X!"

I guess what I'm trying to wrap my brain around is this - When a new jumper (like me) comes along and starts a jump course what's one of the first things you do? You hand him a SIM (which is written by smart, experienced, respected jumpers like yourself - true?) and say "read this." Why does it surprise anyone if we notice that what we read doesn't match what's really going on?

Look at it this way... (bad analogy forthcoming - lol) Lets say I've never been to church in my life and I decide to go. I go to a small country church where the preacher is also the Sunday school teacher and the organist and the youth director, and he hands me a bible and says. "Go home and study this" and I do. After a few months I start noticing that the Preacher is sneaking off into the woods with the Deacon's wife every Sunday afternoon... Now, I've read in the very book that the preacher gave me that this sort of behavior is wrong. I approach the preacher about it and he does nothing but get irate. So I start asking the church members, all of whom have been here much longer than I have, and I start getting responses like these;

"If you don't like it you should go to another church"

"This kind of thing happens at EVERY church"

"Oh that's nothing, back in my day the preachers used to do the whole choir - and hey, nobody ever got hurt"

"You haven't even been a Christian long enough to know the difference between right and wrong!"

"Oh, you mean that adultery commandment!? That's always been waiverable."

Wink Okay, okay... this is all a little tongue-in-cheek, but you do get my point, right?

Thanks again for letting me share things from my point of view.

-Kevin


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 8, 2005, 5:41 PM
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With logic like that...you could be a SKYDIVER!Smile

You may not have the jump numbers Kev...but ya talk the talk AND walk the walk!!Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Dec 8, 2005, 6:00 PM
Post #123 of 141 (1651 views)
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>Why does it surprise anyone if we notice that what we read doesn't match what's really going on?

It doesn't suprise me.

When I started skydiving the SIM was really thin - basically the BSR's, and some stuff on the SL program, the demo rules and some high altitude charts. Shortly after I started, it started growing really, really fast. Everything got thrown into the SIM. AFF levels and descriptions. RW recommendations. After-student-status stuff. The ISP.

Nowadays it's quite the tome. I've probably read all of it at one time or another, but it's a safe bet that most jumpers (and that includes most instructors) have not read it cover to cover. They scan the areas that are applicable to them and leave it at that.

Also, some places decide to NOT do stuff that's in the SIM. Maybe they have a different take on the ISP, or they just don't want to do it. Maybe they don't think X is quite right so they do it their way.

In addition, some parts of the SIM are sorta ignored by consensus. The cloud separation requirements effectively end up as "don't punch clouds." The part about the SL JM rappelling down the static line to the hung-up student, cutting him free and then deploying his reserve - that was written by someone who had seen one too many Wally Gubbins movies.

> Lets say I've never been to church in my life and I decide to go.

Go to any church that uses a bible. You will meet people there who (sometimes) curse, who don't believe the earth is only a few thousand years old, and who work on weekends. All those things are contrary to the bible. Most people don't have a problem with that, because they don't take every part of the bible as literal truth. Same with the SIM.

The SIM is a good guide. If you don't know whether to heed its advice or not, it's generally a good idea to heed it. Once you understand the topic a little better, you may say "you know, I think X is a better way to do that!" And you might then try it, or talk to someone else about trying it. The SIM is just a place to start. (Note that I'm referring to the SIM and not the BSR's here; that's a slightly different story.)


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Dec 8, 2005, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
Seems a lot of the "older" jumpers...people who have been in the sport 10+ years....I'd go as far to say 15+...are always saying "this is how I learned, I survived and am fine."

The BSRs aren't continuously reviewed and revised because of the many who did things a certain way and lived to tell about it, they're for the few who wont.


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Dec 8, 2005, 6:30 PM
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Quote:
Go to any church that uses a bible. You will meet people there who (sometimes) curse, who don't believe the earth is only a few thousand years old, and who work on weekends.

Hey, I warned you ahead of time that it was a bad analogy! LOL Smile

Quote:
The SIM is just a place to start. (Note that I'm referring to the SIM and not the BSR's here; that's a slightly different story.)

Very good point. The SIM in general vs. BSR's (kinda like the bible in general vs. the 10 commandments, huh? lol)

It is indeed the BSR's that are taking a beating at this DZ.

Thanks Bill for your input and advice.

-Kevin


apley  (D 28335)

Dec 8, 2005, 6:41 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
PM me the DZ name and maybe Airtwardo (the enforcer) and I will go undercover,

You 2 under cover, I gotta see this. Tongue

Sparky

what??!!! nick and airtwardo under the covers? what happens on dz.com, stays on dz.com...

seriously, excellent idea nick. you are the Man!


jloirsdaan  (C 35569)

Dec 8, 2005, 7:41 PM
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Okay...this is a good thread. It went from a good discussion....too some drama...and is now back to a good discussion!

I actually think the bible analogy is good, and I agree that whats going on at this DZ definitely breaks the Ten Commandmants Wink. But thats my opinion...and opinions are like.....yeah I won't go there.

I agree that the SIM is just a guide....I think you'd rarely jump in Oklahoma and Northern TX (or probably anywhere) if you went strictly by what it recommended. The cloud thing is probably the biggest one....heck if I can see the general area I want to be in....I'm jumping......Laugh. But I do open at the correct altitude, do wave off, track for separation, check for traffic before exit (this kinda goes against the whole cloud deal though), etc. However.....I am a licensed skydiver...and the instructors I had did teach me how to make a safe jump....even if the equipment and some other things didn't actually allow it to actually go the way I/we were taught. All that aside...I know what I was taught...and can make a decision on when and how I jump and don't jump. What I find acceptable risk...whats to risky...etc. Students usually can't make an informed decision....and it should be up to us and USPA to make sure that they are taken care of and kept as safe as possible. Students usually don't know whats "safe" and unsafe early on, especially not on the first jump.


(This post was edited by jloirsdaan on Dec 8, 2005, 7:52 PM)


Schoenauer  (D License)

Dec 9, 2005, 9:37 PM
Post #128 of 141 (2619 views)
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I am not going to dragged everyone into some hypothetical situation of what ifs. I know most of the BSR’s and if I don’t I know here to find them if I have question. As for the FAA regs I don’t know them all only the important ones, seat belt use, night jump requirements, alcohol, cloud clearances for VFR, and reserve pack cycle. If I have a question about the FAA regs I know where to look also.

Where I stand if I bust a BSR or FAA reg my bad the DZ might catch hell but I am still going to pay, in some fashion. Now if I realize the DZ operation places me into a situation where a violation exists and I point it out to the DZO, in vain, I will go some place else. I have done it before.


exnavykds  (B 28231)

Dec 19, 2005, 3:52 PM
Post #129 of 141 (2512 views)
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Quote:
if I realize the DZ operation places me into a situation where a violation exists and I point it out to the DZO, in vain, I will go some place else

I agree, and that's pretty much what happened here. The issues here, at least the ones I wittnessed, really only affected the students and not the licensed jumpers with their own equipment. As Jordan pointed out, first jump students generally don't read the SIM, don't know the difference between a Cypres AAD and a Sentinel AAD, and don't know the hazards of wingloading a reserve at 1.38:1. Maybe I was wrong, but I felt someone needed to speak up for the students.

Nobody, including myself, wants to see the DZ shut down. We just want to see it made a little safer.


skyfox69

Apr 11, 2009, 8:29 PM
Post #130 of 141 (2299 views)
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In order to add another 2 cents worth, I have been jumping for thirty (30) years and got to say that Pegasus DZ at Chickasha, OK is the WORSE DZ I have ever jumped at. It looked just like Fandango and the dzo runs it about the same. The student equipment needs to be placed in a bon fire and burned immediately. Old, very dirty, full of dust, looks like a cloud of smoke rising out of the equipment when a student puts it on. Altimeters and foam mounts appeared to have been pulled thru the mud and sand by the students when returning to the hangar. Canopies and the lines looked like they were used to keep Geronomo tired up while he was a prisoner at Ft Sill. So thin a blade of grass would easily slid thru the material.
This place is a accident waiting to happen.
There is not a manifest system in place whatsoever for experienced or student jumpers.
The aircraft look like they were flown thru a few flak traps and the dzo has patched the sheet metal every 5 feet or so to keep it together.
Got to watch him land dead stick one afternoon, since he forgot to put fuel in the aircraft prior to takeoffl Yep it is neat to see one land, roll out and stop with no sound.!!!!! Most of the instructors have left for other DZs, the DZO has run them off with his mouth. Doesnt have a clue on how to talk to people. All the students leave and jump at other DZs in the state. Sure wish the USPA or FAA would do something, but I doubt if anyone will take action.
I've moved long ago to a real safe and professional DZ. Take care
skyfox69


stratostar  (Student)

Apr 11, 2009, 8:48 PM
Post #131 of 141 (2290 views)
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Dave, Don't hold back dude, tell us how you really feel.


LyraM45  (B 26378)

Apr 12, 2009, 12:29 AM
Post #132 of 141 (2254 views)
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Re: [RayLosli] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would be TRULY interested with the opinions of other jumpers with a few more years of experience and jump #'s who skydive there. before making any decision of blatant Negligent Safety of jumpers.
Kevin you sound REALLY pissed off. I will tell you something when Looking back to the time when I myself had 75 jumps. I did not know my Ass from a hole in the Ground.
But Hey Now, look at you. All grown-up now. Quoting Regs. and passing judgment of your DZ's operations. I would be really interested in you posting some hard facts of what the Injury rate is there or even death rate @ YOUR DZ in question. Which is ? and WHO runs it ?
Now this is only my opinion but that list of petty self-inflated infractions is nothing and with only 75 jumps. You do not know enough to lay judgment on any DZ operations. No DZ or jumper likes a Nark and If this thread you started is not for a Troll....Shocked. (i smell Troll). Then you are well on your way to being Branded just that. If you don't like things there on that DZ then Hey like stated before in a post. "You are a paying customer." so maybe you better Move-On. If you are not happy then maybe attach your Newly Acquired jump skills and new found ethics of a sport and life style you have only started to dip your Big Toe in.

I don't care if you have 100 jumps or you have 1 million jumps. Even a good student should be able to spot what is safe and not safe right off the bat. (and if they can't, then maybe they shouldn't be jumping) Its not like there is grey area here where somebody with X-amount of jumps might be able to discern if its legal (or safe) or not. When it comes to Rules and Regs, either you're breaking them or you aren't. Even somebody who knows a little bit about aviation and can pull out a 2009 FAR/AIM with ZERO skydives can tell you some of these things.

The guy never said that this DZ was a menace to jumpers. Quite the opposite actually-- were you reading any of his posts where he kept repeating that this DZ is more than fine for licensed jumpers? And actually, I don't think he sounds pissed of at all, but rather concerned; just as I would be in his shoes. Its each of our duties to bring stuff like this to the table when its going down. If I saw a student go in at a DZ under a reserve canopy that was too small or an ADD that didn't work properly and either caused his death or may have prevented it in another situation-- and if I knew about all of that and never said anything??? Could you sleep at night knowing that that death could have been prevented if brothers and sisters in the sport stood up and said something about the causes of that fatality sooner???

There's no judgment being passed here. He's just stating what is being practiced at this DZ, and if that practice happens to be breaking BSR's or FAA regs, then that is that and the fault rests solely on the business executing those practices.


skyfox69

Apr 12, 2009, 1:24 PM
Post #133 of 141 (2202 views)
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Re: [LyraM45] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

You hit the nail directly on the head.

skyfox69


coreyangel  (C 38834)

Apr 12, 2009, 6:21 PM
Post #134 of 141 (2110 views)
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Re: [LyraM45] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

[replyI don't care if you have 100 jumps or you have 1 million jumps. Even a good student should be able to spot what is safe and not safe right off the bat..
I can't agree with you more. I stopped jumping at Pegasus after about 13 jumps and never looked back.






labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 4, 2009, 5:54 PM
Post #137 of 141 (1704 views)
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Re: [LyraM45] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Even a good student should be able to spot what is safe and not safe right off the bat.

What should an average student be expected to spot?

Quote:
Even somebody who knows a little bit about aviation and can pull out a 2009 FAR/AIM with ZERO skydives can tell you some of these things.

Should average students be expected to come into the game knowing anything at all about aviation?

Hell, I'm a pretty smart person and I was so pumped about my first skydive that I actually didn't think about the fact that I was going to also get a plane ride until after I showed up at the DZ.


CJosJumper  (C License)

Apr 27, 2014, 2:38 PM
Post #138 of 141 (931 views)
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Re: [labrys] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

Just read through all the posts. Looks like the last was Apr. 2009. I found the thread because I had just heard about a serious accident at Pegasus Air in Chickasha, OK. Apr. 2014.
They only do SL, AFF, IAD instruction. No Tandem. From what could learn from their web site, they prefer first time jumpers to do Static Line. They also allow ages 16 and up. The jumper was 16 female. Had good opening at 3500 ft. but with a mild right hand turn. That remained the same all the way to the ground with no flare. Broke alot of major bones and will have a full , but long, recovery. Not all the information is out yet but if Pegasus was still not always using radio to talk down beginning students then it looks like the student froze up. DZO thinks there will be a lawsuit. Ya, like duh. BTW- the dropzone is for sale land, buildings, two cesna 182 s, and all equipment. $ 250,000 Pegasus Air Sports.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Apr 27, 2014, 6:09 PM
Post #139 of 141 (827 views)
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Re: [CJosJumper] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

and?


topdocker  (D 12018)

Apr 28, 2014, 10:52 PM
Post #140 of 141 (688 views)
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Re: [CJosJumper] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

CJosJumper wrote:
Just read through all the posts. Looks like the last was Apr. 2009. I found the thread because I had just heard about a serious accident at Pegasus Air in Chickasha, OK. Apr. 2014.
They only do SL, AFF, IAD instruction. No Tandem. From what could learn from their web site, they prefer first time jumpers to do Static Line. They also allow ages 16 and up. The jumper was 16 female. Had good opening at 3500 ft. but with a mild right hand turn. That remained the same all the way to the ground with no flare. Broke alot of major bones and will have a full , but long, recovery. Not all the information is out yet but if Pegasus was still not always using radio to talk down beginning students then it looks like the student froze up. DZO thinks there will be a lawsuit. Ya, like duh. BTW- the dropzone is for sale land, buildings, two cesna 182 s, and all equipment. $ 250,000 Pegasus Air Sports.

Hey troll! How's the bridge you are living under? Or is it a rock?

top


CJosJumper  (C License)

Apr 29, 2014, 4:33 PM
Post #141 of 141 (550 views)
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Re: [topdocker] USPA and FAA reg violations [In reply to] Can't Post

My appologies. I thought I was on a different thread / forum and miss posted . Sometimes us old farts screw up.



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