Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
RSL's-Again

 

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kelpdiver  (B 7)

Aug 28, 2005, 11:38 PM
Post #176 of 183 (660 views)
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     Re: [Ron] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
Fewer, by far.

Got any numbers to back that up, or are you just making stuff up?

Well, you guys keep posting descriptions of 5 events that happened as long ago as 1997 (and have phrases like 'preliminary'), plus this recent AZ incident where the student pulled the cutaway.

And then on the other side, there were two incidents as the same boogie this month alone. Go on to read the incident reports and you'll often see the note that an rsl would likely have prevented the outcome.

I'd do it, but given your attention span in the past with the wingloading review, I don't see the point. You'd prefer to cherry pick. Or instead merely move on to the ratio defense, rather than to yield the point.


Ron

Aug 29, 2005, 5:24 AM
Post #177 of 183 (645 views)
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     Re: [kelpdiver] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Well, you guys keep posting descriptions of 5 events that happened as long ago as 1997 (and have phrases like 'preliminary'), plus this recent AZ incident where the student pulled the cutaway.

You are picking now.

I said "RSL's have killed"...Then a bunch of folks said they don't.

I proved them wrong, but you refuse to see that.

The Student in AZ....The RSL contributed to his death, thats just simple logic. You want to discount it since he screwed up and pulled the cutaway? Fine, but then you have to discount both WFFC accidents since they also both screwed up and lost track of altitude.

See you claim an RSL would have saved the two at the WFFC, but I say without an RSL the AZ student might have lived.

You guys keep fighting, but you fail to see the clear fact that the two at the WFFC died since they failed to perform the EP as a two step process....The Student in AZ died because a piece of "Saftey gear" fired the reserve while he was unstable.

In reply to:
I'd do it, but given your attention span in the past with the wingloading review, I don't see the point. You'd prefer to cherry pick. Or instead merely move on to the ratio defense, rather than to yield the point.

Well you are being as obtuse now as you were during the WL debates.

You refuse to see my point at all....The RSL while it could save you if you screw up does nothing that you can't do yourself. However it removes your ability to delay after a cutaway...And that has killed.

You refuse to admit that and would rather stick your head in the sand and pretend your safety toys are perfect.


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 29, 2005, 5:54 AM
Post #178 of 183 (637 views)
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     Re: [Ron] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

 

Ron, how many have been killed by RSLs in the last 5 years? Compare with how many have died no-pull after a cutaway. The data are all out there.

There's simply no comparison. RSLs, on balance, save lives. To argue otherwise is irresponsible. YOU and Derek ARE being irresponsible.


Ron

Aug 29, 2005, 6:10 AM
Post #179 of 183 (634 views)
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     Re: [kallend] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
There's simply no comparison. RSLs, on balance, save lives. To argue otherwise is irresponsible. YOU and Derek ARE being irresponsible.

A Safety device that can kill you is not a good safety device.

You are encouraging device dependancy by ignoring the fact that RSL's have killed people. You refuse to admit the dangers. THAT is irresponsible.

Also if you had bothered to even read any of my posts I have said time after time that I recomend an RLS till you have a Malfunction that you handled properly....You of course would rather just run around calling people irresponsible than bother to educate people to the risks of your favorite toys.


(This post was edited by Ron on Aug 29, 2005, 6:18 AM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 29, 2005, 6:38 AM
Post #180 of 183 (628 views)
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     Re: [kallend] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
The data are all out there.

Quote the numbers.

The poeple killed by their RSL's, for the most part, did everything right, or at least would have probably lived had they not had an RSL. Those that went in without deploying their reserve after cutting away could have easily saved themselves by pulling the handle, they still had a chance.

No one wants to answer my repeated question:

Out of 100 RSL-equipped malfunctions, how many will the RSL save the jumper, i.e. the jumper wouldn't pull their reserve in time or at all. 1? 10? Give me a number.

The rest of the cutaways, the RSL is making the situation worse for the jumper.

That is the point I am making and people fail to see.

Quote:
Ron, how many have been killed by RSLs in the last 5 years? Compare with how many have died no-pull after a cutaway.

How many of the no-pull after cutaways was the jumper depending on the RSL to activate the reserve for them, based on previous experience and/or training, but were jumping a rig without a functional RSL?

Quote:
There's simply no comparison. RSLs, on balance, save lives. To argue otherwise is irresponsible. YOU and Derek ARE being irresponsible.

RSL's are not perfect, to pretend otherwise is not responsible. Speaking the truth is not irresponsible. Just answer my questions in this post.

Still waiting for your hard numbers. If you are going to expect them from me, then hold yourself to the same standard and produce them.

Derek


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on Aug 29, 2005, 6:39 AM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 29, 2005, 8:31 AM
Post #181 of 183 (609 views)
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     Re: [Ron] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

 

Ron, can you point to a single post where I have denied that RSLs can and have caused problems? If not, quit accusing me of saying that.

Unless you have a crystal ball you cannot predict what type of malfunction you will get that may kill you.

On balance, then, you are better off with an RSL unless you have specific reason (such as CRW) for not using one.


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 29, 2005, 8:35 AM
Post #182 of 183 (607 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Out of 100 RSL-equipped malfunctions, how many will the RSL save the jumper, i.e. the jumper wouldn't pull their reserve in time or at all. 1? 10? Give me a number.

The rest of the cutaways, the RSL is making the situation worse for the jumper.

That is the point I am making and people fail to see.

Derek, you knolw perfectly well that no-one keeps track of that data.

What we DO know for sure is that since the introduction of AADs and widespread use of RSLs (both of which you ceaselessly denigrate at every opportunity) the number of no/low pull fatalities has been cut by around 80%.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 29, 2005, 9:38 AM
Post #183 of 183 (598 views)
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     Re: [kallend] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

>Ron, can you point to a single post where I have denied that
>RSLs can and have caused problems?

I can see where this is going. This thread has reached the end of its useful life as a safety and training thread, so I'm going to lock it rather than move it to Speaker's Corner. Kallend, Ron, please don't snipe at each other if you don't have anything to say.


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