Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
RSL's-Again

 

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Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 25, 2005, 6:54 AM
Post #151 of 183 (1077 views)
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     Re: [kallend] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
I wonder how many now-dead skydivers who went in with nothing out were absolutely, supremely confident that they would pull their own ripcord when the time came?

I wonder how many of the now-dead skydivers that thought the RSL was a great safety device, right up until it killed them working EXACTLY as it was designed to?

Derek


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on Aug 25, 2005, 7:33 AM)


1010  (B 28561)

Aug 25, 2005, 7:11 AM
Post #152 of 183 (1071 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Quote:
I wonder how many now-dead skydivers who went in with nothing out were absolutely, supremely confident that they would pull their own ripcord when the time came?

I wonder how many of the now-dead skydivers that thought the RSL was a great safety device, right up until it killed them?

Derek


This for me is not a bad summary of the discussion. I believe the numbers weigh heavily on the side that RSLs may have saved many more lives than they may have cost. I'll be getting a Skyhook.


EvilLurker

Aug 25, 2005, 7:15 AM
Post #153 of 183 (1070 views)
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     Re: [billbooth] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Bill,

Yes, those slo-mo videos answered my question. Everyone that states cutting away from a spinning malfunction sends you cartwheeling around all your axis should watch those carefully, in my opinion. I have no doubt it "feels" like you are doing that, after what you have just been through, but in reality, you've got a single axis of rotation that is arrested fairly quickly by the drag of the deploying reserve. That's what I'm seeing, at least.
"the test jumper rotates about 170 degrees on the horizontal axis between breakaway and opening."

That's what I saw, too. That was a fairly violent spinner for the canopy size. That last clip (video guy) was chilling. He's very lucky to have lived, he had less than a second to spare. Pirate

After watching those, I have less concern about having line twists on my reserve from an unstable cutaway from a spinner with a standard RSL, and I'd say a Skyhook would actually benefit you (unless you were REAL high) by preventing them. If anyone has a link to a video showing a clear example of an RSL causing reserve line twists, could you post a link?

Bill, excellent device. If I replace my current rig, you'll get my business. Wink


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Aug 25, 2005, 7:50 AM
Post #154 of 183 (1058 views)
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     Re: [EvilLurker] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

ALL TSO'd reserves are dropped with three 360 degree twists in the lines (just like in the RWS video). The reserve must be fully functional within few seconds (I forgot how manyexactly). So, why are we worriend about the line twists on the reserves?!? They are designed to fly with them and "untiwist" from them quickly (TSO).


EvilLurker

Aug 25, 2005, 8:19 AM
Post #155 of 183 (1046 views)
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     Re: [skydiverek] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
why are we worriend about the line twists on the reserves?!?

It's one of the pillars of the "why I don't use an RSL" argument. While I agree with the dangers in some of the anti-RSL points, the "I want to have time to get stable to prevent line twists" one is bogus. I might concede one twist, from what I've seen so far.
(Now watch a movie show up that makes me look like a moron). Wink


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 25, 2005, 8:56 AM
Post #156 of 183 (1033 views)
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     Re: [EvilLurker] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
It's one of the pillars of the "why I don't use an RSL" argument. While I agree with the dangers in some of the anti-RSL points, the "I want to have time to get stable to prevent line twists" one is bogus.

No, unstable deployments is a cause of malfunctions, not just line twists. Read the incidents, posted in this thread and others, caused by an unstable RSL reserve deployment. The RSL did exactly what it was designed to do, launch the reserve PC immediately after a cutaway, which caused a reserve malfunction and fatality.

Derek


EvilLurker

Aug 25, 2005, 9:19 AM
Post #157 of 183 (1023 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

I agree it's optimal to be stable during a reserve deployment, and yes, an RSL could result in a reserve malfunction, and yes, if you have sufficient altitude to cutaway, get stable, then manually deploy your reserve at a useful altitude, it gives you the best shot.
The argument (and you've seen it) that you don't want an RSL while cutting away from a spinner because you're going ass-over-teakettle in 3 axis and you'll get line twists, I don't believe. That's the only point I'm addressing right now. I'm willing to risk the dangers of an RSL for now because I would rather have the extra altitude rather than the extra stability when I deploy. Others may have different priorities. And that's okay. Wink


jlmiracle  (D License)

Aug 25, 2005, 9:48 AM
Post #158 of 183 (1010 views)
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     Re: [billbooth] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
"When will Skyhooks be available on other rigs?"

There are other rigs?

I thought advertising is not allowed in these forums?


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 25, 2005, 9:55 AM
Post #159 of 183 (1007 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Quote:
I wonder how many now-dead skydivers who went in with nothing out were absolutely, supremely confident that they would pull their own ripcord when the time came?

I wonder how many of the now-dead skydivers that thought the RSL was a great safety device, right up until it killed them working EXACTLY as it was designed to?

Derek

Fewer, by far.


Praetorian  (B 27234)

Aug 25, 2005, 10:04 AM
Post #160 of 183 (1002 views)
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     Re: [kallend] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

(not a direct reply to anyone)

Anyone else find it funney that people are worried about choosing an RSL because it the worst case it could kill you... and yet not worried about their choice of Reserve loaded at or above their already agressive main, which they can land just fine, .... except maybe in a worst case, injured, unconcious, blinded by blood, or just plain disorientated .. like say after a low cutaway from a violent spinner.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 25, 2005, 10:09 AM
Post #161 of 183 (1002 views)
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     Re: [Praetorian] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

>people are worried about choosing an RSL because it the worst
>case it could kill you... and yet not worried about their choice of
>Reserve loaded at or above their already agressive main,

That's because most skydivers cannot picture themselves screwing up. They will be completely heads-up during their mal, always cut away by their hard deck, and land their tiny reserve in the peas (after a short planeout of course) with a flourish. And if that's what's going to happen, you don't need an RSL and you don't need a big reserve.

That's one reason I recommend people using RSL's until they have a cutaway or two. That way they will learn that most malfunctions aren't like most jumps. They are generally fast, violent, confusing events, and you have time to do one simple thing right (like cutting away and opening your reserve.) Often taking the time to add even one step to the process, like kicking out of line twists on a small main, or getting stable after cutting away, is enough to reduce your safety margin to zero.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Aug 25, 2005, 10:12 AM
Post #162 of 183 (1001 views)
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     Re: [Praetorian] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
Anyone else find it funney that people are worried about choosing an RSL because it the worst case it could kill you... and yet not worried about their choice of Reserve loaded at or above their already agressive main

Because all those arguing over the RSL jump those overloaded reserve canopies... It's like the hook turn debate, its okay for "them" to do them but everyone else does not have enough experience.Crazy (I just don't like high performance landings/hookturns).

j


nate_1979  (B 27889)

Aug 25, 2005, 10:27 AM
Post #163 of 183 (990 views)
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     Re: [EvilLurker] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
The argument (and you've seen it) that you don't want an RSL while cutting away from a spinner because you're going ass-over-teakettle in 3 axis and you'll get line twists

How about the mal (like my first) where the jumper is already spinning on his back, so he doesnt have to be going "ass-over-teakettle in 3 axis" because he's already in a dangerous deployment position when he chops (on my back)? My RSL deployment went just fine, this time, but considering I was most likely still on my back when the reserve PC deployed .... I really dont need a reserve PC coming up between my legs or wrapping around one of them, I'm more worried about that than I am of line twists. I really dont need a reserve horseshoe or wrap to add to my list. Crazy


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 25, 2005, 11:00 AM
Post #164 of 183 (974 views)
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     Re: [kallend] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
Fewer, by far.

Let's see the numbers. You do have the numbers to back that up, right?

Derek


EvilLurker

Aug 25, 2005, 11:14 AM
Post #165 of 183 (969 views)
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     Re: [nate_1979] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

I was concerned with having 14 or so line twists if I cut away from a spinner. After watching the video, I'm convinced I won't, with or without an RSL. If my reserve PC deploys between my legs, or wraps me, I'll just have to try and clear it, won't I? I think the chances of that are pretty slim, too, actually. My reserve PC launches about 5 feet, and the relative wind is from feet-to-head at the moment you chop a spinner, from what I've seen so far.
But if you think it's that risky, don't use an RSL. No problemo.


goose491  (A 7123)

Aug 25, 2005, 11:26 AM
Post #166 of 183 (963 views)
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     Re: [billvon] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
That way they will learn that most malfunctions aren't like most jumps. They are generally fast, violent, confusing events, and you have time to do one simple thing right. Often taking the time to add even one step to the process, like kicking out of line twists on a small main, or getting stable after cutting away... [SNIP]

.... or disconnecting the RSL in a wrap/entanglement situation....


Quote:
...is enough to reduce your safety margin to zero.

Just thought I'd stick that one in there... God knows it belongs. Wink

Nick


(This post was edited by goose491 on Aug 25, 2005, 11:41 AM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 25, 2005, 12:30 PM
Post #167 of 183 (935 views)
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     Re: [EvilLurker] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
After watching the video

Which video? If it the Skyhook video, that is a whole different animal. The Skyhook doesn't result in unstable reserve deployments. The Skyhook is not just an RSL.

Derek


EvilLurker

Aug 25, 2005, 12:39 PM
Post #168 of 183 (924 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

The Skyhook video is fine to study for an RSL comparison, as long as you stop at the point where the main departs. Up to that point, there's no difference between RSL/Skyhook/no RSL at all. I just wanted to see whether a cutaway resulted in movement around more than one axis of rotation. I'd say no.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 25, 2005, 1:21 PM
Post #169 of 183 (909 views)
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     Re: [EvilLurker] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
I just wanted to see whether a cutaway resulted in movement around more than one axis of rotation. I'd say no.

On most of my cutaways I was rotating on more than one axis.

Derek


kallend  (D 23151)

Aug 26, 2005, 5:57 AM
Post #170 of 183 (860 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Quote:
Fewer, by far.

Let's see the numbers. You do have the numbers to back that up, right?

Derek

Like your "99%" numbers?


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 26, 2005, 8:12 AM
Post #171 of 183 (839 views)
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     Re: [kallend] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
Like your "99%" numbers?

Like I already explained, it was to make a point, not a real number, I have since switched to useing the term "vast majority" in place of the 99%. I was using it as a figure of speech. not a real number.

Since you are so concerned about hard numbers, I'd like to see yours, unless you just made yours up. Pot meet kettle?

Derek


Ron

Aug 28, 2005, 4:41 PM
Post #172 of 183 (789 views)
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     Re: [kallend] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Fewer, by far.

Got any numbers to back that up, or are you just making stuff up?

You are the one that claims to demand hard numbers...so show me some.


Ron

Aug 28, 2005, 4:43 PM
Post #173 of 183 (789 views)
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     Re: [mnealtx] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Skyhook is no different from an RSL in a collision/wrap situation - you unhook it and cut away...or am I misunderstanding you?

No you got what I was sending, both an old RSL and the new Skyhook BOTH require you to disconnect it before you cutaway if you want to fall clear from a canopy collision....

Having been wrapped up in a nother persons parachute spinning like hell twice, I can tell you that very few people will have the presence of mind to remember to disconnect ANY RSL.

It is that reason that I don't really like any RSL. It removes choice from you, and in some cases can make things worse.....Imagine cutting away from a canopy collision and now being wrapped with your reserve?


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 28, 2005, 7:04 PM
Post #174 of 183 (773 views)
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     Re: [Ron] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
You are the one that claims to demand hard numbers...so show me some.

He expects hard numbers, but the rules don't apply to him, he can make up anything he wants.

Derek


Ron

Aug 28, 2005, 7:22 PM
Post #175 of 183 (765 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
He expects hard numbers, but the rules don't apply to him, he can make up anything he wants.

Kinda like how some people can make personal attacks, and others get banned for a PM?


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