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RSL's-Again

 

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Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 22, 2005, 4:23 PM
Post #51 of 183 (1109 views)
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     Re: [bmcd308] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
The analogy is pretty clear - your rsl could have helped you if one of those cutaways had been at 800 feet.

What if one of them was? I pulled the reserve and was fine. An RSL still wouldn't have helped. What if on one of the cutaways from a violently spinning VX-60, I had entangled with my reserve PC bridle?

I think we should stick to comparing malfunction jumps with and without RSL's. Jumps where the main didn't mal are revellent to a discussion about RSL's.

Derek


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Aug 22, 2005, 4:36 PM
Post #52 of 183 (1105 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Some of the most flawed logic I have ever seen. You quote stats without sources, assume that there are only 3 scenarios where the RSL does some good, etc etc.

How about they help when:
1. they deploy the reserve EVERY time you cutaway if it is connected.
2. they help EVERY time by getting your reserve out faster that you ever could, allowing more time under your reserve to find a nice safe place to land
3. they save many lives every year, given that we USED to have bounces due to low/no reserve pulls and now we have almost NO boiunces due to low/no reserve pulls. SOme are saved by AAD and many - we will never know......but they do exist simply from the statisticall number dropping.

I remember why we put them there in the first place, been jumpign for that long.

I think too many people have started in recent years and do not know those reasons. Maybe we need to restate them once in a while.

I will stand by RSLs for pretty much everyone. Watched my friends die and watched many people who maybe would have - maybe would not have pulled after a cutaway. Glad they are here to talk about it, not groping anf flailing all the way to their deaths.

DO you actually have any idea how many are saved each year by the RSL? I doubt it and I doubt I can prove it other than the 70's stats the 80's statst and the 90's stats comparisons.

Take your 99% number and stuff them, they are meaningless and pulled out of your head. Show me some real numbers that tell me RSLs kill and I will believe you.

TK


mattjw916  (D License)

Aug 22, 2005, 4:36 PM
Post #53 of 183 (1105 views)
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     Re: [pilotdave] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
An RSL is for the worst times, not the best times. When you find yourself cutting away at 500 feet for whatever reason, let me know how comfortable you are. Of course you never plan to do something so stupid. Neither did all those people whose fatality reports say "an RSL may have helped..."

You think you're better than them. I don't know anything about them so I see no reason to think I'm any different.

It's not about being "better" as you put it, it's about not betting your life on a little snap-shackle and a tiny length of nylon to do what your brain should be trained to do in a split-second. How many cutaways happen at 500ft or less? VERY few, I'd wager. In fact, in all my travels, I have only met one person that cutaway at that altitude (lower actually) and deployed his reserve in time, all without an RSL.

I have had several spinning malfunctions and had no problem keeping track of altitude whilst arguing with the canopy, the last one was on Sunday in fact, so I seriously doubt I will ever end up that deep in the basement.

The same incident reports often gloss over the fact that an RSL likely caused the problem or at least was the fatal ingredient.


(This post was edited by mattjw916 on Aug 22, 2005, 4:39 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 22, 2005, 5:09 PM
Post #54 of 183 (1096 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

>Apples and oranges. How could an RSL have helped me on those 14 mals?

How could a reserve help me when my main doesn't mal?

>Your reserve would have been a great help if your main had mal'd.

Your RSL would have been a great help if you hadn't been able to find your reserve.


hobbes4star  (B 24739)

Aug 22, 2005, 5:49 PM
Post #55 of 183 (1088 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Doesnt this argument sound a lot like the whole argument concerning cutting away a pilot chute in tow? Half of the people say cutaway and deploy reserve and the other half say no dont cut away. (Scratches head as I walk away)


pilotdave  (D License)

Aug 22, 2005, 6:18 PM
Post #56 of 183 (1080 views)
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     Re: [mattjw916] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
It's not about being "better" as you put it, it's about not betting your life on a little snap-shackle and a tiny length of nylon to do what your brain should be trained to do in a split-second.

RSLs aren't for the untrained. They are for when properly trained skydivers find themselves in a terrible situation. Nobody's advocating the use of SOS systems or using an RSL instead of pulling the reserve handle here.

Some accidents scare the crap out of me. It's not the guy that screws up a hook turn, it's the guy that cuts away and doesn't pull on time or something else that just doesn't make sense. The accidents that I'll probably never understand. They seem so simple to avoid, but people didn't avoid them for some reason. I don't assume that those people were especially stupid or anything. I assume they were just like me. Why would someone just like me make such a dumb mistake or not be able to pull their reserve for some reason? They knew better. Yet they still managed to screw up in the worst possible way. I have seen absolutely no evidence to lead me to believe that can't happen to me. So I've got a cypres and the best RSL available.

I've jumped without an AAD and I've jumped without an RSL. Some people see a positive in that. I simply don't.

Dave


mattjw916  (D License)

Aug 22, 2005, 6:53 PM
Post #57 of 183 (1061 views)
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     Re: [pilotdave] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
RSLs aren't for the untrained. They are for when properly trained skydivers find themselves in a terrible situation. Nobody's advocating the use of SOS systems or using an RSL instead of pulling the reserve handle here.

Plenty of people do, I hear the "Everyone should have an RSL until X number of cutaways or X number of jumps." argument constantly. I do a little CReW now and again, mostly bumping end-cells and such, plus I plan on jumping camera in the not-too-distant-future. There is no way that I am going to have an RSL on for either activity or have to disconnect/reconnect it constantly.

Of course, if you are a "hard-core" belly flyer that insists on dumping at just over 2k on every jump, perhaps you should keep it on. You probably will need it.


dbattman  (D 27577)

Aug 22, 2005, 7:12 PM
Post #58 of 183 (1054 views)
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     Re: [mattjw916] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Finally, there we have it. It only took THREE pages for someone to finally point out that the RSL/NO RSL argument should be dependent on the situation, not on the possibility of it could help you or it could cause another problem.

You do CRW? Fine, no RSL.
You jump a camera? Fine, no RSL.
You jump a tiny VX? Fine, no RSL.

You jump a square at 1:1? Why not have one?
You do a lot of big way stuff where you can get sucked low tracking for air? Why not have one (small canopy, maybe ?)
You're a new jumper working on awareness and learning the sport? Why not have one?


If I'm not mistaken, we lost two people at WFFC from low cutaway/no pull. Yes, the RSL is NOT to be depended on. Yes, the RSL is NOT a replacement for acting appropriately in executing your procedure. Yes, we DO NOT rely on electro-mechanical devices, AADs, altimeters to be accurate, or RSLs to pull our handles for us.

BUT- if the shit is really going down, they can throw the odds in your favor. Do you have a GOOD reason for NOT having an RSL? Fine, don't have one. If you DON'T have a good reason for taking it off, perhaps you should reconsider.

It's a personal decision and we should not push people in one direction or the other, but give them enough information to make an informed choice.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 22, 2005, 7:14 PM
Post #59 of 183 (1053 views)
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     Re: [mattjw916] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

>Plenty of people do, I hear the "Everyone should have an RSL until
>X number of cutaways or X number of jumps." argument constantly.

That statement has nothing to do with "advocating the use of SOS systems or using an RSL instead of pulling the reserve handle." Most people recommend AAD's for new jumpers; that does not mean they advocate not deploying a parachute before impact.


mattjw916  (D License)

Aug 22, 2005, 7:44 PM
Post #60 of 183 (1043 views)
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     Re: [billvon] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Sure it does, those people assume that you won't deploy the reserve for whatever reason, so here's a wiz-bang gadget that will solve all your problems.

The problem is that people use devices like AADs, RSLs, traditional red/silver handles, etc to lull themselves into a false sense of security.

I can't count the number of people that have made a stupid comment about my blue/orange pillow handles as I have traveled around the country. Like I'm going to forget which one to pull first. Crazy

Of course, those are the often the same people that think dumping at 2k every jump is perfectly reasonable and a Sabre 1 is a great canopy. Crazy


EvilLurker

Aug 22, 2005, 7:44 PM
Post #61 of 183 (1041 views)
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     Re: [billvon] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

I'll get rid of my RSL when they pry it from my cold, dead.... no, wait a minute, bad example. Wink


pilotdave  (D License)

Aug 22, 2005, 7:54 PM
Post #62 of 183 (1030 views)
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     Re: [mattjw916] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
The problem is that people use devices like AADs, RSLs, traditional red/silver handles, etc to lull themselves into a false sense of security.

Is that something you have seen, or is that something you've read about?

I don't doubt that many skydivers feel safer than they really are. But it's not the ones with metal reserve handles and RSLs that are the most mistaken, it's the ones that think they've got the skills to stay out of the situations that have repeatedly killed jumpers in the past, and therefore don't need the safety equipment that would have saved those that came before them.

Dave


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 22, 2005, 7:59 PM
Post #63 of 183 (1024 views)
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     Re: [tkhayes] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
1. they deploy the reserve EVERY time you cutaway if it is connected.

That isn't necessarily a good thing. Deploying the reserve immediately after cutting away has led to fatalities.

Quote:
2. they help EVERY time by getting your reserve out faster that you ever could, allowing more time under your reserve to find a nice safe place to land

I would rather be stable for the reserve deployment, giving my reserve the best chance to open cleanly, than watch my freebag go between my legs.

Quote:
3. they save many lives every year, given that we USED to have bounces due to low/no reserve pulls and now we have almost NO boiunces due to low/no reserve pulls. SOme are saved by AAD and many - we will never know......but they do exist simply from the statisticall number dropping.

Unfortunately there are no real numbers to use. Taking my experiences with malfunctions as an example, an RSL would not have helped me one bit in any of my mals, and only could have made things worse with an unstable reserve deployment.

I never found myself low on my back after cutting away, but if I had, I would have deployed immediately and taken my chances. I was always able to take a small delay, getting my shoulders even to the relative wind with my chest into the wind before firing off the reserve. If I would have had an RSL, I would have had some interesting reserve deployments, especially the tandem bag-lock where one riser was slow to release.

Quote:
Show me some real numbers that tell me RSLs kill and I will believe you.

Look in the fatalities lists. RSL's have killed people. They don't very often, but they do too often.

As Ron put it very well, they take away options and complicate emergency procedures.

We'll never know how many real RSL's saves there are since the jump that has one and has a mal never gets the chance to save themselves. We'll also never know how many people go in sub-consciencly expecting their RSL to deploy their reserve. I strongly believe that some of the cutaways without a reserve pull are because the jumper was used to the RSL and it either wasn't connected or they were jumping a rig without one. They have a cutaway, the RSL beats them to the reserve pull, so they don't bother pulling it. Next time, no RSL, they expect the familar "G's" of the reserve deploying, but feel nothing and panic sets in. They never pull the reseve handle thinking something is wrong. So, they go in and people say an RSL would have saved them. Well, it would have, but it caused the initial problem in the first place. Never having one would have saved them too.

I have seen a lot of non-RSL reserve rides, where the RSL would have caused the reserve to deploy while the jumper was un-stable. Instead the jumper cutaway, got stable, and deployed the reserve in plenty of altitude.

You can always deploy the reserve very quickly after cutting away if you wish. Without an RSL, you can take a delay. With an RSL, you cannot.

Are there times when an RSL saved a jumper? Yes, definately. Of course the jumper could have saved themselves by deploying at safe altitude, picked appropriate gear, maintained their gear, etc and avoid the situation entirely. You have to make several mistakes to be cutting away that low.

Derek


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Aug 22, 2005, 8:02 PM
Post #64 of 183 (1019 views)
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     Re: [billvon] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
>Apples and oranges. How could an RSL have helped me on those 14 mals?

How could a reserve help me when my main doesn't mal?

You didn't answer the question. Let me re-phrase it. On those 14 skydives where my main malfunctioned, would I have been better off with or without an RSL?

Derek


mattjw916  (D License)

Aug 22, 2005, 8:26 PM
Post #65 of 183 (1012 views)
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     Re: [pilotdave] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Is that something you have seen, or is that something you've read about?

I don't doubt that many skydivers feel safer than they really are. But it's not the ones with metal reserve handles and RSLs that are the most mistaken, it's the ones that think they've got the skills to stay out of the situations that have repeatedly killed jumpers in the past, and therefore don't need the safety equipment that would have saved those that came before them.

Yes, I have had every comment I listed made directly to me, or to another person and I overheard it, such as when sitting in on student training, etc.

By your logic then, you must also drive a Volvo since a lot of people have been killed in car wrecks, that they could have otherwise survived, were they to have been driving a car with better crash protection. And I am sure you always have a pilot-emergency rig when you fly since they would have saved countless pilots in the past as well.

You seem fixated on the concept that I somehow think myself "better" than others since I don't perceive a need for an RSL. Quite the contrary in fact. Things that are more important than RSLs: don't attempt mid-air rigging, don't set breakoff at 3.5 on group jumps, don't consistently pull-low, respect your hard-deck, maintain your gear, don't go on jumps with people who are over their head and will potentially force you to hum it down for separation, etc, etc.

Pay more attention to those and an RSL becomes moot, such as Derek has pointed out ad nauseum.


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

Aug 22, 2005, 9:26 PM
Post #66 of 183 (1002 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
An RSL can hurt you if:

1) You cutaway and do not fail to deploy your reserve in time.

How can an RSL hurt you if "You cutaway and do not fail to deploy your reserve in time"? The statement that you are making is that the only time an RSL can hurt you is when you jettison the malfunctioning main canopy and then deploy your reserve...?!? You don't really believe that do you? What examples do you have to back that up?

Brett


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

Aug 22, 2005, 9:38 PM
Post #67 of 183 (998 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
So, in conclusion, an RSL can help 1% of the time, in situations that can be easily avoided, and hurt you 99% of the time. The RSL doesnt know if you are low or not. If it armed itself at, say 750 feet, it would be a great device. But is doesnt. It is armed unless you disconnect it.

Derek

You cannot be that much of an idiot, can you? Even if what you said is true, which it isn't, the fact remains that jumpers...

Quote:
1) Deployed your main too low.
2) Rode a malfunctioning main too long.
3) Failed to get hard riser inserts and maintain your 3-rings and cutaway cables creating a hard cutaway.

These things happen! Unfortunately, they happen too often! Apparently, one or more of these situations happened at the convention this year. Having an RSL almost certainly would have affected the outcome for the better in both of these cases. That's two more examples of where having an RSL would have made the difference between life and death. Facts are facts; RSL's can save lives. RSL's do not cost lives.

It's scary that there are people out there that listen and believe dumbshits like you.

Get out of this business before you get someone killed!

Brett


nate_1979  (B 27889)

Aug 22, 2005, 9:43 PM
Post #68 of 183 (994 views)
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     Re: [brettpobastad] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Facts are facts; RSL's can save lives. RSL's do not cost lives.

RSLs can cost lives, it may be rare, but it can happen... I can save my own life, I'd rather trust myself to save my own life than count on an RSL that *COULD* kill me. Like people have said, it's like the airbag, good most of the time but sometimes tragic... Only difference is that I can choose not to accept the possibility that some safety device is gonna hurt me here.


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

Aug 22, 2005, 9:44 PM
Post #69 of 183 (993 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
That isn't necessarily a good thing. Deploying the reserve immediately after cutting away has led to fatalities.

WHaaaat? When? Where?

Goddamn, you're a menace!

Brett


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

Aug 22, 2005, 9:55 PM
Post #70 of 183 (987 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
Unfortunately there are no real numbers to use. Taking my experiences with malfunctions as an example, an RSL would not have helped me one bit in any of my mals, and only could have made things worse with an unstable reserve deployment.

Of course not, you stupid fuck! That's because you deployed your reserve! You actually DID IT RIGHT! Will wonders never cease?

Have you ever heard of the saying 'You can't prove a negative'?

The reason why RSL's exist is because of idiots like you!

You wouldn't have lasted two months had you started jumping 30 years ago.

Brett

NOTE: will one of you moderators PLEASE ban me for life? PLEASE! There are just too many stupid people on this thing!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 22, 2005, 10:01 PM
Post #71 of 183 (993 views)
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     Re: [Hooknswoop] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

>On those 14 skydives where my main malfunctioned, would I have
>been better off with or without an RSL?

Without. Similarly, in the 2000 or so jumps I've made in the past five years (with zero mals) I would have been better off without a reserve - had I known I would have had zero malfunctions. Needless to say, I prefer to jump with one (usually) because I think they help more often than they hurt - if you're not omniscient. Same with RSL's.


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

Aug 22, 2005, 10:14 PM
Post #72 of 183 (992 views)
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     Re: [nate_1979] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
RSLs can cost lives, it may be rare, but it can happen... I can save my own life, I'd rather trust myself to save my own life than count on an RSL that *COULD* kill me.

Nate

You are simply wrong. With all due respect, you have not been around long enough and had enough experiences to be able to make the above statement. Of course you believe that you can save your own life. And hopefully, you can and will. Unfortunatley, statistics do not back up your statement. The facts remain that you are far more likely to jettison your malfunctioning main parachute and do nothing else (in these cases, having an RSL would most likely make a positive difference) as opposed to having a RSL and it causing any kind of problem.

The choice to employ an RSL or not is a personal one, of course. It's a free country. But know the facts when you make the decision.

Please, PLEASE don't listen to just anybody.

Brett


nate_1979  (B 27889)

Aug 22, 2005, 10:43 PM
Post #73 of 183 (981 views)
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     Re: [brettpobastad] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
You are simply wrong. With all due respect, you have not been around long enough and had enough experiences to be able to make the above statement. Of course you believe that you can save your own life. And hopefully, you can and will. Unfortunatley, statistics do not back up your statement. The facts remain that you are far more likely to jettison your malfunctioning main parachute and do nothing else (in these cases, having an RSL would most likely make a positive difference) as opposed to having a RSL and it causing any kind of problem.

I, having had more malfunctions than some people with thousands of jumps (a whole nother issue in itself), can confidently say that I dont think I will ever cut away and do nothing else... I have had my handles in my hands BOTH TIMES i've chopped before I felt the reserve do crap, even with the RSL. I have performed my EPs twice, and done it flawless both times.. One was spinning on my back, I didnt even get freaked out by this, everything was just "automatic" because I take the time to practice my EPs before EVERY JUMP and I think about what I will do in emergency situations on a regular basis. The first one, which I say the RSL fired on my back, I had even waited to flip back belly to earth before pulling the handle, still didnt feel the reserve before I pulled (although I realize the reserve may have been assisting in my flip back belly to earth).. When I chose not to pull the reserve immediately, I knew what my altitude was and that I had plenty of time to get stable before pulling (even though I had RSL, honestly the fact that RSL was pulling my reserve ripcord never even crossed my mind at that point).

I feel that in my case, the chance of an RSL firing my reserve before I want it (such as on my back when I have time to get belly to earth stable) or in a situation where my main is still attached in some way (riser brake / release problem) is much higher than me just not performing my EPs... I know, others have said the same, they have died saying the same, and they thought they were different too, but I think having chopped twice in my low jump numbers gives me something to stand on for my feelings about RSL. I've read the fatality reports, RSL would have saved many people, but there are also those reports where the RSL may have made things worse. I think that those "may haves" need to be taken into consideration when people choose RSL or NO RSL, saying that an RSL has only helped people is just wrong.

With respect, and I really mean that... I dont wanna be that low jump # punk who thinks he's right, but I just dont understand how people can say the RSL doesnt ever hurt people when it has.


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

Aug 22, 2005, 10:54 PM
Post #74 of 183 (975 views)
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     Re: [nate_1979] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Quote:
but there are also those reports where the RSL may have made things worse.

What reports? Are you sure about that? Better re-read whatever reports you think you saw.

Hey Nate! Thanks for the 'respect' thing. Not so much for me , but for you! I can tell you're wanting to learn and I appreciate that.

Brett


hookitt  (D License)

Aug 22, 2005, 10:59 PM
Post #75 of 183 (971 views)
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     Re: [brettpobastad] RSL's-Again [In reply to]  

Facts are facts; RSL's can save lives. RSL's do not cost lives.
In reply to:

But they can... and sometimes do

Read that post and This from the same thread. Look at the date of this incident.

Do not say things so matter of factly when clearly you are not correct.


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