Aug 3, 2005, 5:52 PM
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4-way Comp suit suggestions please.
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Thinking about starting a Gravityrats 4-way team although I am not very familier with the competition suits on the market. I'm not asking for comments on how cool some manufacturers are or how quick they can deliver a suit. I want to know from some of the seasoned 4-way competitors about what suits seem to work best and what modifications and such are really used in competition. Example, should all 4 people wear the same model suit and adjust with weights and so on.
We have suits coming this week (fingers crossed). Here's some suggestions I received from a major suitmaker for hard core 4-way (this guys knows his stuff) - bottom up
1 - Rubber soles instead of leather (lasts a ton longer) 2 - cordura booties - NO bootie sippers (it's all about sturdiness - they see a lot of pressure, zippers are counterproductive to that goal and really bad if they go up high) - Knife edge designs and stiffeners are pretty nice and offered by some. 3 - Cordura knees - double material knees (sturdiness) 4 - Inside grippers (of course) 5 - Cordura butt 6 - Cordura grippers (some like the partial sticky materials, I don't see a big diff) 7 - Big gripper fillers 1.5 inch, maybe shaped. 2 inch grippers get a little too big (once you've grabbed a pathetic worn out gripper you'll understand how that sucks) 8 - All black (white gloves) for judging, make it easy on the judges (we went with two color grippers and made the front half colors and the back half black - that way on level we could see the accent, but not the judges.)
I like lots of pockets personally, even though I don't use them much.
For all the major manufacturers, this combination of options are pretty much the same price. Michigan is doing something along these lines for us called the Tetris (option package is standard like the above so easy to order). Preferences in manufacturer is different depending on who you talk too and there are enough threads on this so I won't wax poetic about how decent our recent search went.
The booties need to be nice and tight. Most suits come in with really loose booties - seems to be a systemic problem in the suit industry (mail order anyway). What's the point in having booties if they aren't effective?
I don't necessarily thing matching suits or even same suits are important as good weight belts and getting fall rates matched that way.
good luck - I really enjoy talking to the various suit makers, they are, in general, a super nice class of people in this sport.
Generally agree with Rhemwa but here's my 2p: 1. You pretty much live in that suit when training. No bootie zippers may be sturdier but not very practical. Get the biggest leg zips you can. If you need a super sturdy suit, then invest in (two suits and have) a competition only suit with no bootie zippers. 2. White gloves, black suit. It's pretty well established now. There are occasionally conditions where white suit with black gloves is better - but it's rare. 3. Chunky grips - they just kinda feel good. 4. Some suits have a better rep in the tunnel than others - this meant we ultimately chose Bev over Tony. 5. I also like pockets. 6. Dont use light stretch material in the back - your rig will wear it down. 7. Go for the latest mega bootie that your brand offers. 8. Liners that reduce sweating are good. 9. Dont bother trying to adjust fall rate with material selection unless you are really heavey or light. Allow lead to do the job. 10 Get your girlfriend to double check your measurements before you send them off. Rather than shoe size we just draw an outline of a shoe to get the shoe size right.
Our Bev suits have managed 2 seasons and more than 10 tunnel hours - that not serious compared to some teams but the Bev suits have required hardly any maintenance. We like them.
Some designs offer zippered booties or even forearms. Ah, I see zippers as failure points that are not needed.
As for fall rate, the suits do not have to be the same brand....Right now my team has 3 Michigans and 1 Tony. We had 2 Michigans, and two Tony's, but one guy got smart
I Like Mishigan suits. I have been a "Test Subject" for a few design changes like the new arm grips.
I have a Tony suit in the mail and can give you a little feedback when i pick it up in eloy in a few days, but for now I can tell you don't go anywhere near teh bodysport RW suit. They look great but that's about it.
I just put mine through two hours in the tunnel and it looks like its about to explode.
2 of the (5 RW, 1 Cam) we ordered just showed up. Kim says they look very tough/sturdy/beefy.
Of course the 2 that showed are for the 2 jumpers with the newest "old" suits. Hopefully 3 more tomorrow or later today... this is an all random practice weekend so perfect to redial in weights and fallrates again.
How cool. I would happy to help, if you are looking for any. Let me know. Not to mention that you know where to find me. I personally like all my Bev Suits I have had. They have held up well over the years. I think some of the extras you can add to the suit are more of personal preference. Like, I will always have a suit with fore arm zippers. In the heat, it's just a little bit cooler. However, you gotta have inside grippers to do 4way. Again, let me know if you have any questions or if you need any help.
Quote from above: 1. You pretty much live in that suit when training. No bootie zippers may be sturdier but not very practical. Get the biggest leg zips you can. If you need a super sturdy suit, then invest in (two suits and have) a competition only suit with no bootie zippers. / end quote.
No, as far as possible train in the same type of jumpsuit that you will be wearing for competition.
dgskydive: Tony suit Pit Special with Mega Airspeed booties!!!! I have one of thoose, I dont think the vented Mega Airspeed Bootie is that good. My next suit will be a Bev competition suit.
...can't believe a suit thread has got this far without someone saying 'shoe goo'! Get it on there.... although you don't need one tube per foot like a certain guy I know applied
Personally - found my Tony Pit Special to be great, although if you're training lots -especially tunnel - choose the hard waring options discussed above. Tunnel time is hardcore and will eat thru a suit. I modified my Airspeed style booties with adjustable bootie shock cord and those plastic style cord stays you get on jackets etc. Helps keep 'em tight in freefall, yet easy on/off when you need it.
The Tony Pit Special is a great all around suit (with big grippers and the Mega Airspeed Booties (non-vented).
The newer ones have a zipper that so far seems to be pretty tunnel proof, the older ones you either had to replace the zipper or tape it up.
That being said my tunnel Pit Special currently has about 300 jumps and 90 hours of tunnel and is still going strong. Only things replaced were the leather of the booties to keep them from slipping off as easily.
All around an excellent suit.
Bill
(This post was edited by hipgnosis on Aug 5, 2005, 9:21 AM)
2 of the (5 RW, 1 Cam) we ordered just showed up. Kim says they look very tough/sturdy/beefy.
Of course the 2 that showed are for the 2 jumpers with the newest "old" suits. Hopefully 3 more tomorrow or later today... this is an all random practice weekend so perfect to redial in weights and fallrates again.
Maybe its just me but couldn't this just as easly be accomplished with you're base layer. (example: nothing special in the suit but wear cool-max running shorts and a similar T-shirt to facilitate cooling... not only that it lets the jumper change it more frequently...
I've got a couple of suits that might fit you if you want to try them out; one is a Tony, the other is a Bev. Each suit maker has a distinctive fit, but on the whole, pretty much all suits are the same. It comes down to little variances in personal taste and body profiles that really differientiate the products. Rehm hit most of the must-have options (don't know that I agree about rubber soles -- shoe goo is the solution if the leather wears too quickly). My preference is Bev.
Echoing the color scheme comments, if you must have massive orange areas, put it on the belly, and have the back and 'sides' be black. White gloves will be the easiest to find, and good contrast (e.g. white on black) makes the judges job much easier -- which is a Good Thing for you. IIRC, Deguello got into a bit of a tiff with judges at a Nationals due to background clutter and the team's suit colors. Something to think about.
I'd be glad to work with you on starting a 'Rats 4way team if you want, and there's no end of advise on this forum.
I haven't had to apply shoe goo to either of thelast two Pit Specials I have gotten the one I just replaced ahd well over 500 jumps on it and 20 hours+ in the tunnela the booties held strong. The patches and such didn't.
Hell was never good enough for all those patches anyway.
Yup, the good rawhide type leathers are more sturdy. My last suit was a great one (not one of the 'big three' you see talked about here most). But the leather was a softer type and wore quickly. I'm still jazzed about the new one.
(figured the bi monthly 'recommend a good 4-way suit' thread is due anyway)
Michigan Tetris Suits
We had ours for the last few weekends (except Sarah who got her rebuild last Thursday - hasn't jumped it). And everyone is completely jazzed. Full sized booties with stiffeners are the best thing ever. Our last meet was a team personal best and it wasn't as clean as the previous meet even.
here's a pic - 3 of us wearing the new suits, easy to tell (and the cameraman also wearing a Michigan camera suit).
We're thrilled (4 out of 5 customers thrilled, 1 remaining to decide).
The knife edge allows for some real powerful turns but a new tychnique will be needed to move forward (turn your toes out abit).
I got the blunt edge stiff booty since it is complimetary to my personnal flying style. They turn real fast too, but I do not have to turn my toes out to move forward. At my age breaking this habit is gonna take to long.
Took it out of the box today at noon and by 3 pm and 3 jumps later I wonder what I can do with my other suits, maybe just use them for tandems and loungin' around the DZ.
Took it out of the box today at noon and by 3 pm and 3 jumps later I wonder what I can do with my other suits, maybe just use them for tandems and loungin' around the DZ.
I was going to keep my old one also as a backup, but after a couple jumps (and having the booties on the new suit tightened by my wife - both heel fit and length knee/toe) decided to give the old suit to one of the younger skydivers who's flying pretty good and needs a fitting suit and booties. I have no desire to jump another suit now that I've used the Tetris. I'll say it again - Mega booties are the best.
Did the suit stand up on its own right out of the box? those are stiff booties and grippers. Very cool.
I don't know what "knife edge" means. The front of my booties is an inch and a half wide panel, or so. I've seen older versions with a single stiffened seam right in the center - is that it?
I have the same thing. And yes, the booties are super powerful. Post 2 here describes what I meant by Tetris - (It's just a defined option package that Mike thinks = serious competition based on his experience and input from serious types). Anyway, new suits are fun.
I don't know what "knife edge" means. The front of my booties is an inch and a half wide panel, or so. I've seen older versions with a single stiffened seam right in the center - is that it?
The original design the front came to a single seam.
My last suit had a 1 1/2" center piece. The theory is that the center piece will be able to fold over and actually increase the surface area of the bootie...So far it seems to work well. It has tons of power, but I think the original "Knife Edge" allowed for slightly quicker inputs laterally.
My last suit had a 1 1/2" center piece. The theory is that the center piece will be able to fold over and actually increase the surface area of the bootie...So far it seems to work well. It has tons of power, but I think the original "Knife Edge" allowed for slightly quicker inputs laterally.
Thanks, we have a guy with a Mich with the single seam (original knife edge). Mine is like yours. I agree with the concept of the center flat allowing more surface.
I just got my new Tony Suit a few weeks ago, I'm having to send it back because it's a little snug. I did put a few jumps on it to try out hte mega booties and they rock!!! The suit flies incredibly clean and seems incredibly well built. I'll drop a review after I put a couple hundred jumps on it and let ya know how it holds up.
So now my wife is making RW suits in addition to freefly suits and weight belts.
I'm absolutely amazed at how this works. There aren't any full sized patterns out there to work from for this type of thing. And the RW suit is SO much harder than the freefly suit as it's form fitting.
I've never seen someone create a full body suit pattern from scratch. It was quite a journey for her.
In any case it's gorgeous - Both the women's and men's cuts. She's done ALL those prototypes and now the real suit is being staged. I can't wait to see people with them at the DZ. I think she's going pretty hard core and will only accommodate a couple options, it's a beefy comp suit or nothing. I like that, but I'm an all or nothing kind of person. She says that she's only taking enough orders to do fast turnaround on suits. I wonder how long that'll last if they become popular. I think there's a premiun for turning around an order in a week or two...
I have a lot more respect for all the suit manufacturers out there now that I see first hand what goes into a new design and even in just making one.
But I'm even more convinced that when someone is buying a suit from whoever, that they sit down and take it very seriously and talk to a serious competition type and buy the most powerful version they can with those necessary options for the highest level of skydiving and durability. (That's why I think it's great that Mich has the Tetris option, rather than a big ol list of options - it's the right thing for the customer even if they don't know it yet.)
Still loving my Tetris, and it's great to have someone live-in that can do the little regular sewing maintenance that a highly used suit needs.
I have had my Majik style Bev suit long enough to become comfortable with it and it's probably the last suit I will ever need. Since I'm not the skinny skydiver that I was 25 years ago, I got mine with the small wing and swoop cords. Without using them, I can do 118-119 mph without working at it. I've used the swoop cords when jumping with the lightweights and been as slow as 112 mph without sacraficing performance. I got the slip-on sleeves just in case but I haven't had to use them. I would recommend this suit to anyone looking for a quality jumpsuit.
I had my new tony suit for a while, it was working well for me although a bit too small, but when I took it in the tunnel and saw myself flying it realized that the mis-sizing was causing a lot of problems. So Neal Houston sold me one of his suits(Ihave no clue how the hell it tis me, I outweight him by at least 30 pounds!!), and it was like night and day. the right suit will do wonders for your flying. so now I'm getting ready to send my old suit back to tony along with Neal's to have them match the sizes.
Tony has Neal's sizes on file, keep the suit and use it till your other one gets back.
In reply to:
nice, thanx i'll give em a call this week and get it all set up, I still think it's funny that Neal's suit fits me though, I stand about 3" taller and am quite a bit more built, he complains everytime we're piece partners that I weigh too much!! I've since tried to start losing weight but the harder I try the more weight I put on
he complains everytime we're piece partners that I weigh too much
All you guys suck. Getting to jump regularly with the top people.
I'm not jealous.
{I look around and see booties constantly loose - I agree that a good fit is hugely important. As I noted, I'm learning a lot 2nd hand about what goes into making a suit. It's a big tradeoff between yuppies wanting to be comfy - loose booties, zippers on the booties, etc; and what is really needed for 'flying' - all the grippers, lots of cordura, tight booties, MEGA booties, etc}
All you guys suck. Getting to jump regularly with the top people.
In reply to:
I wouldn't say regularly, but everytime I have some vacation time I drive to the wind tunnel and pay for coaching with Airspeed. I'm going back to Eloy in April for work and am planning on paying for an hour and three Airspeed coaches to do 4 way with me, I want to see how hard I can push myself
. Hopefully 3 more tomorrow or later today... this is an all random practice weekend so perfect to redial in weights and fallrates again. 
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