Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides?

 


Poll: Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides?
I have NOT had both. 62 / 78%
I have had both, and recommend the Skyhook equipmemt. 11 / 14%
I have had both, and don't recommend the Skyhook equipmemt. 2 / 3%
I have had both, and don't have a strong opinion either way. 4 / 5%
79 total votes
 
1010  (B 28561)

Jun 29, 2005, 12:57 AM
Post #1 of 37 (3435 views)
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Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? Can't Post

(Feel free to include tertiary rig/intentional cutaway experiences.) Thanks for any info provided.

I'm a newb, attempting to weigh the added complexity of the Skyhook and Collins-like lanyard system against other top-tier rigs without the system.

I hope to see a Vector 3/Skyhook rig in person to help in my decision.

Also, since I am planning on using an RSL on whichever rig I purchase anyway, am I best off with the Skyhook implementation of an RSL? It seems that way to me.


freeflygirlz  (D License)

Jun 29, 2005, 1:50 AM
Post #2 of 37 (3386 views)
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Re: [1010] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi!
Just to make sure you know: Skyhook is only available on Vector Gears (Tandem, Student and Vector 3)
In my school we have Sigma Tandems and Student Gears with Skyhook. For these gears I highly recommend the Skyhook, as the reserve openings are much quicker than with standard RSL.
The problem of unstable reserve openings with RSL is not that much of a problem with the Skyhook.
On my gear I don't have either.
BTW I don't feel comfortable with packing a reserve with skyhook. I'm not doing that much of rigging, so I do not pack gears with skyhooks.


1010  (B 28561)

Jun 29, 2005, 2:11 AM
Post #3 of 37 (3375 views)
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Re: [freeflygirlz] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the fedback freeflygirlz, I hadn't considered all the tandems with it. And yep, I'm looking at the Vector 3 M-Series.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jun 29, 2005, 5:32 AM
Post #4 of 37 (3307 views)
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Re: [1010] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I've yet to have a reserve ride... but saw a guy out of aggieland chop his main at a grand. BY the time he reached line extension, his canopy was open. I went over to him and siad that had to be the slickest reserve deployment I've ever seen. He told me it was a Skyhook.

It will definately get your attention.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 29, 2005, 10:18 AM
Post #5 of 37 (3200 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
BY the time he reached line extension, his canopy was open.

That's bad. It would mean an out of sequence deployment, with inflation prior to line stretch. That could easily lead to canopy damage.

I would suggest you saw the canopy open quickly after full line stretch since the lines must be completely unstowed on most freebags for the canopy to escape. The appearance of speed was probably due to the rapidity of which the the freebag was brought to linestretch since the departing main was used to static line the deployment.

To the original poster, both the SkyHook and conventional RSL system are great. Unstable deployment issues with either system are exaggerated or unproven. The SkyHook is a neat device but does come with a drawback or two, and has many of the same limitations as a conventional RSL. The Colin's lanyard (currently only available on RWS SkyHook Equipped systems, and some tandem systems) is a GREAT device, and it would be wonderful if all manufacturers would incorporate it into their systems regardless of RSL type.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jun 29, 2005, 8:15 PM
Post #6 of 37 (3066 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The appearance of speed was probably due to the rapidity of which the the freebag was brought to linestretch since the departing main was used to static line the deployment.

True.


JumpRu  (D License)

Jun 30, 2005, 9:15 AM
Post #7 of 37 (2961 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

>The SkyHook is a neat device but does come with >a drawback or two, and has many of the same >limitations as a conventional RSL.

Please explain this for me. What are those drawbacks? I have never had RSL but really considering getting SkyHook.


Deuce  (D 25597)

Jun 30, 2005, 9:18 AM
Post #8 of 37 (2958 views)
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Re: [1010] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've photographed and video's a few skyhook cutaways. I don't have one on my sport rig, and I don't think it's needed.

I posted recently about a couple of tandem chops I had in the last couple of weeks, and I would really have liked to have had the system on the tandem rig.

Mr. Booth stated in the thread that he originally designed the system just for tandem and student rigs, but added it to the sport line because the test jumpers liked it so much.

It is faster, when it functions correctly, than an RSL or a non RSL chop.

On a student or first rig, I think an RSL with or without the skyhook is a very good idea.

Don't you DARE come down from your first reserve ride without your reserve deployment handle having been pulled in sequence and on time, regardless of your backup system!

In the attached picture, you'll see the skyhook has the bridle out and pulling the reserve bag clear well before the spring loaded reserve pilot chute can inflate . ( I think Egon has this one on the Vector site)

Edit: Sorry about the quality of that photo, it was taken with a telephoto with us both under canopy and I didn't have the shutter speed high enough. Anyhow, the Skyhook is attached to the bridle right at the top of the frame, and you can see it is pulling the bridle clear before the reserve pilot chute can even inflate.


(This post was edited by Deuce on Jun 30, 2005, 9:22 AM)
Attachments: aviattr-chop.jpg (59.6 KB)


1010  (B 28561)

Jun 30, 2005, 9:41 AM
Post #9 of 37 (2944 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

> does come with a drawback or two, and

Please explain your issues with the Skyhook RSL, thanks. I'll be using an RSL on whatever rig I jump.


(This post was edited by 1010 on Jun 30, 2005, 10:13 AM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 30, 2005, 3:54 PM
Post #10 of 37 (2895 views)
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Re: [1010] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Please explain your issues with the Skyhook RSL, thanks. I'll be using an RSL on whatever rig I jump.

A couple facts about the SkyHook.

1) It is a direct connection between your reserve deployment system and your main canopy, not a pasive system like a conventional RSL.

2) It is a more complex system, thus increasing the opportunities for mistakes in rigging.

3) In a ground chop situation (such as being drug in high winds) it has a high probablility of causing a reserve inflation. It will pull the reserve to line stretch and pull the bag off it. A conventional RSL would not.

4) It has eliminated the secondary reserve deployment handle on the RWS Sigma system.

Despite those points it IS a nice advancement in RSL technology. Probably the biggest problem I personaly see with it is the way some people have decided that is doesn't have the same limitations as a conventional RSL.

The same concerns about jumping camera or any other snag prone activity that would prevent someone from deciding to use an RSL, most definately apply to the SkyHook.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 30, 2005, 3:55 PM
Post #11 of 37 (2894 views)
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Re: [JumpRu] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

See above. If you wouldn't jump and RSL, why would you then decide to jump a SkyHook? It's an important question to ask yourself.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Jun 30, 2005, 3:55 PM)


BigSky  (B 28752)

Jun 30, 2005, 4:27 PM
Post #12 of 37 (2886 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is probably a stupid question but when and how does the sky hook detach itself from the main and your reserve?


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 30, 2005, 4:34 PM
Post #13 of 37 (2882 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
1) It is a direct connection between your reserve deployment system and your main canopy, not a pasive system like a conventional RSL.

Are you considering a normal RSL passive since it only pulls the reserve pin or because you can disconnect it?


What about your thoughts when it comes to RSL with out a collin's laynard?


Quote:
4) It has eliminated the secondary reserve deployment handle on the RWS Sigma system.

Name one, just one situation in which the crystal ball was used as a necissary option. Bill Booth can't name one instance, as he states in his reasoning for eliminating the handle (besides a remotely possibility of binding the skyhook). It makes the tandem flowchart less complicated, so its not such a bad thing. Eitherway you can still deploy the reserve via ripping on the RSL/Skyhook clasp if you *really* need it.


1010  (B 28561)

Jun 30, 2005, 4:40 PM
Post #14 of 37 (2880 views)
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Re: [BigSky] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

This should help.

Attached is a cutout of a pic from the brochure.

The whole skyhook brochure (4 page pdf).



(This post was edited by 1010 on Jun 30, 2005, 4:54 PM)
Attachments: skyhook-clip.JPG (10.4 KB)


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jun 30, 2005, 4:49 PM
Post #15 of 37 (2873 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Name one, just one situation in which the crystal ball was used as a necissary option. Bill Booth can't name one instance, as he states in his reasoning for eliminating the handle (besides a remotely possibility of binding the skyhook). It makes the tandem flowchart less complicated, so its not such a bad thing. Eitherway you can still deploy the reserve via ripping on the RSL/Skyhook clasp if you *really* need it.

Here is the thread on why the crystal ball was eliminated: http://www.dropzone.com/...i?post=624693#624693


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 30, 2005, 5:19 PM
Post #16 of 37 (2852 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Are you considering a normal RSL passive since it only pulls the reserve pin or because you can disconnect it?

It only activates the reserve deployment system.


Quote:
What about your thoughts when it comes to RSL with out a collin's laynard?

I wis every RSL equiped system came with a Collin's Lanyard. I would jump a Collin's Lanyard equiped coventional RSL system if I didn't jump camera.

Quote:
Name one, just one situation in which the crystal ball was used as a necissary option.

I know of at least one TM personaly who has used the secondary handle. Beside, when did you last have to use your hook knife? But you still carry it don't you?

It's not that big a deal, and I won't stop jumping Sigmas because of it, but I'd rather have that option.

Quote:


AggieDave  (D License)

Jun 30, 2005, 5:22 PM
Post #17 of 37 (2849 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I know of at least one TM personaly who has used the secondary handle.

Then let RWS know about it as well. Did he use it because he had to or he just did? What lead up to tha scenerio? If you want, PM me the details, I'm curious as hell now.
Quote:
Beside, when did you last have to use your hook knife? But you still carry it don't you?

But you can still deploy the reserve w/o the ball on the latch, just harder to grab...its not like you instantly can't use it if you needed to. Although I'll tell you the cyrstal ball is in my handle touch sequence I do on the ground when I put the rig on and in freefall.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 30, 2005, 5:22 PM
Post #18 of 37 (2849 views)
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Re: [BigSky] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

In situations where the freebag is extracted buy the drag of the released main parachute the SkyHook shouldn't detach. If the reserve P/C is the force that deploys the reserve frebag, the bridle is pulled at such an angle that the SkyHook should release.

Bill Booth has commented he wasn't sure about releasing the SkyHook on Sport rigs for the fear of huge losses in the sales of replacement freebags and reserve pilotchutes.....LaughTongue


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jun 30, 2005, 6:37 PM
Post #19 of 37 (2827 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
To the original poster, both the SkyHook and conventional RSL system are great. Unstable deployment issues with either system are exaggerated or unproven. The SkyHook is a neat device but does come with a drawback or two, and has many of the same limitations as a conventional RSL. The Colin's lanyard (currently only available on RWS SkyHook Equipped systems, and some tandem systems) is a GREAT device, and it would be wonderful if all manufacturers would incorporate it into their systems regardless of RSL type.

Could you please explain this to me, I recently purchased a Micron which has what I'm told is a Colins Lanyard but it's NOT equipped with a Skyhook?


billbooth  (D 3546)

Jun 30, 2005, 7:30 PM
Post #20 of 37 (2810 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

You CAN order a Micron with an RSL and Collins' Lanyard WITHOUT a Skyhook (we do make custom gear after all)...but why would you. If you have committed to an RSL, then adding the Skyhook should be a no-brainer.

Just a few years ago, most experienced jumpers wouldn't be caught dead WITH an AAD (even though many were caught dead WITHOUT one). Then came the CYPRES, the first really good AAD, and most experience jumpers now wouldn't jump without an AAD. I think the Skyhook will do the same thing for RSL's. (At last count, fully 70% of our new orders for sport gear include the Skyhook option.)

I, except when I was doing tandem, never wanted an RSL until I developed the Skyhook. It simply removed every objection I had ever had against RSL's. Now, I simply won't jump without both an AAD and a Skyhook. When things go wrong in skydiving, they often go very wrong, very quickly. I simply want every "edge" available to me. I have lost too many friends who thought they were invincible.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jun 30, 2005, 8:36 PM
Post #21 of 37 (2793 views)
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Re: [billbooth] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

How's that replacement for the lousy RSL shackle coming? Is it a new design or adapting an existing part?


dorbie

Jun 30, 2005, 8:44 PM
Post #22 of 37 (2792 views)
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Re: [billbooth] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

To me it's a case of playing the odds. The benefits seem to outweigh the disadvantages. There's a tendency for some to think they have the skills to handle situations that have killed other very experienced jumpers. Even if a skyhook could increase my risk in some situations, my perception is that there are far more situations where is increases my chances of survival, and since few jumpers actually choose what kills them in skydiving the decision on a skyhook is a simple one. This is why my next rig will have a skyhook or equivalent system.


(This post was edited by dorbie on Jun 30, 2005, 8:45 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 30, 2005, 9:14 PM
Post #23 of 37 (2782 views)
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Re: [billbooth] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It simply removed every objection I had ever had against RSL's.

In reply to:

Just curious Bill...What were your misgivings with using an RSL, prior to the SkyHook?


(I don't use an RSL myself)


billbooth  (D 3546)

Jul 1, 2005, 4:52 AM
Post #24 of 37 (2740 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

I never liked the "standard" single-sided RSL because if the RSL side riser releases prematurely for any reason, the reserve will be deployed into the still partially connected main, which has killed people in the past. The Collins' Lanyard (part of the Skyhook RSL system) cured that. Beyond that, I always pull very high, and figured I had plenty of time to get my act together after a breakaway. Rightly, or wrongly, I do worry about stability before I deploy my last chute. The Skyhook doesn't allow time for instability after a breakaway, even from a bad spinner. It also deploys your reserve in a direct line to the "vertical" axis of your body (where your main just was), guaranteeing equal line length at line stretch.

By comparison, a pilot chute deploys your reserve into the relative wind, which may or may not be the "right" direction depending of body position. (When you're "sliding" sideways after a spinning malfunction breakaway, the reserve deploys "across" your body plane, resulting in apparent differential line lengths which makes for "sloppy" openings.) Also, RSL deployed pilot chutes lift the bag off very "slowly" at low speeds, giving the bag a chance to spin, resulting in a better chance of line twists.


The Skyhook always pulls with the same force, in the same direction, regardless of your malfunction, yielding amazingly consistent openings. Simply put, after watching literally hundreds of video reserve deployments over the years, the Skyhook deployments simply look "cleaner" than the non-Skyhook deployments, and that makes me feel better.


JumpRu  (D License)

Jul 1, 2005, 11:07 AM
Post #25 of 37 (2664 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

thank you for your response, very valid points!
i jump PDR126 loaded about 1.4. this is not a record but still it is high WL for, lets say, a tree landing. SkyHook open reserve faster, that means more altitude to find good place to land. It is new technology so i was taking wait and see approach but i will definitely order it for my next rig.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jul 1, 2005, 5:44 PM
Post #26 of 37 (1103 views)
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Re: [JumpRu] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It is new technology so i was taking wait and see approach but i will definitely order it for my next rig.

It has been awailable for over 2 yeras now.


kevinwhelan  (A 443)

Jul 2, 2005, 5:12 AM
Post #27 of 37 (1070 views)
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Re: [billbooth] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

I jump a teardrop classic with a pd 190 main and a swift plus reserve. I don't do a lot of jumping so wont be getting a new rig for quiet a time.
I would like to get a skyhook system, but Is it only available on new rigs?
is there, or will there be a kit to retrofit other rigs available?


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 2, 2005, 9:31 PM
Post #28 of 37 (1036 views)
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Re: [kevinwhelan] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Only available on the new version of the vectors. A Vector III made before the Skyhook was available can be retrofitted, but that is all. As fas as I know there are no plans for licensing to other mfgs.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 3, 2005, 5:58 PM
Post #29 of 37 (1004 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As fas as I know there are no plans for licensing to other mfgs.

Bill Booth has commented that he wouldn't mind licensing it out, except other manufactures will have to go through a TSO process for it (which is insanely expensive) and pay for the licensing. Basically its not something that other manufactures are willing to pay for.

With that said, there is a fairly solid rumor that another manufacture close to RWS will be offering a Skyhook within a year.


MikeForsythe

Jul 3, 2005, 9:54 PM
Post #30 of 37 (991 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Bill Booth has commented that he wouldn't mind licensing it out, except other manufactures will have to go through a TSO process for it (which is insanely expensive) and pay for the licensing.
Really? So what is the cost of a TSO for this? What has to be done and is it a minor or major change?
Quote:
Basically its not something that other manufactures are willing to pay for.
What manufactures do you have direct knowledge of this?
Quote:
With that said, there is a fairly solid rumor that another manufacture close to RWS will be offering a Skyhook within a year.
Are we talking about Jump Shack's "Lariat"? If you are, that is not a Skyhook.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jul 3, 2005, 10:33 PM
Post #31 of 37 (983 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

I cannot speak for Bill Booth but the last that I understood, the V-3 was using the original Wonderhog C23b TSO-authorization. That would lead me to conclude that it was a Minor Change; which in turn, would pave the way for everyone else.
If I am wrong here, just correct me.


bob.dino  (E 2185)

Jul 3, 2005, 11:54 PM
Post #32 of 37 (980 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Relative Workshop hold TSO certifications for the Wonderhog under C23B and the VT-1 and VTC-1 under C23C.

Making a speculative guess and assuming that the VT-1 and VTC-1 are tandem-related TSOs, I'd say you're right.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 4, 2005, 8:35 AM
Post #33 of 37 (950 views)
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Re: [MikeForsythe] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well Mike, I must have mis-heard Bill Booth then. My mistake.

And no, definately NOT JumpShack. My understanding is a company that you actually work relatively close with.


1010  (B 28561)

Jul 4, 2005, 10:11 AM
Post #34 of 37 (935 views)
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Re: [1010] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

> I have had both, and don't recommend the Skyhook equipmemt.

If you are the person who clicked the above, (current totals: 51 like polls/ 5 like skyhook/ 1 dislikes skyhook/ 3 no opinion), if you would be generous enough to state why you didn't like it, either to the thread, or PM to me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks! Wink


(This post was edited by 1010 on Jul 4, 2005, 10:18 AM)


JumpRu  (D License)

Jul 5, 2005, 6:18 AM
Post #35 of 37 (888 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

That is still "new" to meSmile.


1010  (B 28561)

Jul 11, 2005, 10:13 PM
Post #36 of 37 (812 views)
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Re: [1010] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
> I have had both, and don't recommend the Skyhook equipmemt.

If you are the person who clicked the above, (current totals: 51 like polls/ 5 like skyhook/ 1 dislikes skyhook/ 3 no opinion), if you would be generous enough to state why you didn't like it, either to the thread, or PM to me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks! Wink

Just to close the loop on this, no one has contacted me with why they wouldn't recommend the Skyhook RSL (currently: 56 like polls, 6 like Skyhook, 2 dislike Skyhook, 4 no opinion).

If you desire more RSL & Skyhook discussion try here and here.

Thank you Mr. Booth for all of your contributions to the sport (and my thread).


RogerRamjet  (D License)

Jul 12, 2005, 9:00 AM
Post #37 of 37 (767 views)
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Re: [JumpRu] Have you had both Skyhook-deployed and non-Skyhook-deployed reserve rides? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i jump PDR126 loaded about 1.4. this is not a record but still it is high WL for, lets say, a tree landing.

Or an unconscious or disabled landing.... but I see your point, faster/higher is certainly preferable.


(This post was edited by RogerRamjet on Jul 12, 2005, 9:01 AM)



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