Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Status of night tandem jumps...

 

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dorbie

Feb 28, 2010, 11:23 PM
Post #26 of 78 (2232 views)
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Re: [billbooth] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

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There is little or no reason, or benefit, to take a newbie tandem student on a night jump. Night jumps are simply more dangerous than day jumps, so we discourage them.

The same could be said of Tandem jumps at the North Pole.


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 1, 2010, 12:47 AM
Post #27 of 78 (2216 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

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The same could be said of Tandem jumps at the North Pole.

or mount everest...


BMFin

Mar 1, 2010, 5:41 AM
Post #28 of 78 (2167 views)
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Re: [ccq] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

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I hate to put on my official USPA hat because it makes me look funny being decorated with many golden stars and magic lightning bolts, but I can probably help here. I had a situation in my region where I had to inquire about this issue specifically. What came out of the S&T Committee and USPA Headquarters is that tandem jumps with students are classified as student jumps and thus prohibited from occurring at night (per the below BSR). Nothing in the BSR's specifically addresses the case where a licensed jumper is on the front of the tandem, thus it is technically "legal."

Im curious what is the legal status or these rules set by USPA ? Arent they just internal rules of a private organization ?

In other words, is there any reason why wouldnt you be able to rent a cessna and make the jump as a non-USPA operation ?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 1, 2010, 10:46 AM
Post #29 of 78 (2128 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

"... I'm curious what is the legal status or these rules set by USPA ? Aren't they just internal rules of a private organization ?

In other words, is there any reason why wouldn't you be able to rent a cessna and make the jump as a non-USPA operation ?
........................................................................

We could debate "legalities" all day, but the bottom line is that USPA, FAA, manufacturer, etc. policies are considered "best practices."
If you injure a student - while operating outside of USPA guidelines - you stand alone in court.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 1, 2010, 10:49 AM
Post #30 of 78 (2127 views)
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Re: [Guru312] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Just because I have done a few dumb things (e.g. "pushing daylight" while trying to finish the last few tandem students at the end of a busy day) does not mean that you should follow my bad example.

Night tandems are "high risk, low return."
I don't enjoy doing them.
The student enjoys them half as much,
and risk increases exponentially.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 1, 2010, 10:54 AM
Post #31 of 78 (2123 views)
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Re: [wuffo] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

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Quote:
There is little or no reason, or benefit, to take a newbie tandem student on a night jump.
I've talked to several instructors who have been forced by ASC in Cedartown to do tandems until midnight. This has been done many, many times at that dz. So I'd say if there's a benefit, it is that the dz can get as much money out of a day's jumping as possible.

Did anybody notice this one?


alabamaskydiver

Mar 1, 2010, 11:04 AM
Post #32 of 78 (2116 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
There is little or no reason, or benefit, to take a newbie tandem student on a night jump.
I've talked to several instructors who have been forced by ASC in Cedartown to do tandems until midnight. This has been done many, many times at that dz. So I'd say if there's a benefit, it is that the dz can get as much money out of a day's jumping as possible.

Did anybody notice this one?

Why should this be any surprise? They don't bother to abide by any State or Federal Laws, so why in the hell would any of us think for a second that they would abide by a rule (or guide line) set forth by a private entity? I don't expect anything less of those assholes.


BMFin

Mar 1, 2010, 12:50 PM
Post #33 of 78 (2082 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We could debate "legalities" all day, but the bottom line is that USPA, FAA, manufacturer, etc. policies are considered "best practices."
If you injure a student - while operating outside of USPA guidelines - you stand alone in court.

I agree that night tandems arent as safe as tandems during the day.

I was merely interested on the legal side here.


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 1, 2010, 9:55 PM
Post #34 of 78 (2035 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Night tandems are "high risk, low return."
I don't enjoy doing them.
The student enjoys them half as much,
and risk increases exponentially.

The last point I might agree with, but the others are ridiculous.


We will offer night tandems in the short future, we tested them last month with great success.

The customers are willing to pay twice as much.($600)

We will be paid more than 3 times as much (circa $150 p/j, yet be determined), no videos.

The main problem is the loss of a malfunctioned main parachute but there are also ways around that, such as location beckons.

I enjoyed my night tandem as much as the customer did. Our wind limits would be reduced and we would not use our cloud manual so only a clear line of sight and less than 15knots (yet to be determined).

What is your justification to determine these decisions for those other than yourself?


(This post was edited by rhys on Mar 1, 2010, 9:57 PM)


skydive4u2  (D 8891)

Mar 2, 2010, 8:11 PM
Post #35 of 78 (1944 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I noticed it. And it is complete BULLSHIT. It amazes me how some people who have an axe to grind against Skyride make up any kind of shit they can think of against ASC. "Somebody who worked at ASC told me that they were FORCED to do night tantems." I call bullshit !!! I have worked ther for 10 years. I have seen night tandems there. I have seen night tandems a a lot of other dropzones. This was YEARS ago when it was a grey area . Once it was established they were never done at night at ASC. That was several years ago. When it WAS happening, I said no,I don't want to do night tandems. The management said ok. No one tried to MAKE me do night tandems. Any tandem instructor that did do night tandems did them because he WANTED to. There were several other tandem instructors that said no. I NEVER saw anyone tell anyone they HAD to do them. Some did night tandems, some did not. It was their choice. I usually try to stay out of the politics, but it just amazes me how some people tries to say ANYTHING they can against ASC,whether true or not, when they are really mad at Skyride. I am not saying ASC is a bunch of angels, but on this one subject they are NOT guilty. I was there , and I KNOW what did or did not happen. This is bullshit. And mostly it is put out by people who don't even have the balls to identify themselfs. People like Chris Spense, who bash ASC and says who he is, I respect. Even Billy Vance, bless his heart, I respect. But the people that talk shit and hide behind annonamous accounts, I do not respect. If you want to badmouth someone, at least be a man and identify yourself.


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 7, 2010, 1:58 AM
Post #36 of 78 (1832 views)
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Re: [skydive4u2] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

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I have seen night tandems there. I have seen night tandems a a lot of other dropzones. This was YEARS ago when it was a grey area . Once it was established they were never done at night at ASC. That was several years ago. When it WAS happening, I said no,I don't want to do night tandems. The management said ok. No one tried to MAKE me do night tandems. Any tandem instructor that did do night tandems did them because he WANTED to. There were several other tandem instructors that said no. I NEVER saw anyone tell anyone they HAD to do them.

Are you talking about bonafide night jumps with lights on the landing area, lights on the jumpers and luminated altis etc, or are you talkng about jumping fter dark to finish the day?


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Mar 10, 2010, 10:25 AM
Post #37 of 78 (1704 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
We could debate "legalities" all day, but the bottom line is that USPA, FAA, manufacturer, etc. policies are considered "best practices."
If you injure a student - while operating outside of USPA guidelines - you stand alone in court.

I agree that night tandems arent as safe as tandems during the day.

I was merely interested on the legal side here.
The USPA has no legal authority. The FARs do not specifically ban them.


alabamaskydiver

Mar 10, 2010, 5:01 PM
Post #38 of 78 (1661 views)
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Re: [alabamaskydiver] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
There is little or no reason, or benefit, to take a newbie tandem student on a night jump.
I've talked to several instructors who have been forced by ASC in Cedartown to do tandems until midnight. This has been done many, many times at that dz. So I'd say if there's a benefit, it is that the dz can get as much money out of a day's jumping as possible.

Did anybody notice this one?

Why should this be any surprise? They don't bother to abide by any State or Federal Laws, so why in the hell would any of us think for a second that they would abide by a rule (or guide line) set forth by a private entity? I don't expect anything less of those assholes.

How come no one has challenged Fast Eddie Grantland?

Fact: ASC Still does Night Tandems ASC TN is proof of that. The three Tandem Instructors USPA received the complaint about was CPT Josh Holer, Jeff Fincher and Taylor Smith. Fincher admitted to them after the fact as well as CPT Holer.

Fact: Mike Gruell did night Tandems and only missed being puniched as the USPA investigation could not find eveidence till AFTER they sealed the case and dismissed it. Mike even admitted to it on DZ.com.

Fact: Bill Boothe and Ted Strong have NEVER allowed Night Tandems, only exception is the Military and the first "non military" exception was the recent world record (but they where Military Active Duty so it kind of didn't matter), there was never a "gray area", the BSR's show that.

Fact: Fast Eddie is lying.


skydive4u2  (D 8891)

Mar 10, 2010, 7:30 PM
Post #39 of 78 (1630 views)
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Re: [alabamaskydiver] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am NOT lying. I do not lie. I have never jumped at the DZ in Tennessee. I do not know WHAT they do up there. I was talking about the ASC in Cedartown , Georgia. I can tell you there has NOT been a night tandem there in a long , long time. I was ONLY addressing the person that said they are happening NOW. And they are NOT. By the way, I invite you to come to my FACE and call me a liar. We can discuss it like real men, face to face. NOT by calling someone a liar on the nice safe internet. I notice you do not even have your name or anything on your profile. My name is on my profile. Just about everyone knows me AND where to find me. Come on by anytime and we can " talk".


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 10, 2010, 8:12 PM
Post #40 of 78 (1610 views)
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Re: [skydive4u2] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

No threats. Your one warning.


kj126  (D 28079)

Mar 10, 2010, 8:54 PM
Post #41 of 78 (1603 views)
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Re: [skydive4u2] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am NOT lying. I do not lie. .

Lets see, you drive from huntsville passing through the small town of Albertville, (home town) into a small convienent store with a semi cute blond telling her to come and jump over at cedar town because there is no where in north Alabama to go.

Yep, Im that TI/AFFI at a local DZ.

Care to retract said statement.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 10, 2010, 10:28 PM
Post #42 of 78 (1592 views)
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Re: [billvon] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No threats. Your one warning.

I didn't see any threats. I know him, he's really a nice guy that just happens to work there, naturally to my chagrin... Tongue


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 11, 2010, 2:26 PM
Post #43 of 78 (1540 views)
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Re: [pirana] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

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I thought the manufacturers dictated such rules, and that they strictly prohibit night tandems. Is there a manufacturer that allows them, or is this a purely rogue activity?

manufacturers may recommend things to foriegn bodies, but the local aviation autority is the ultimate decider of what is allowed and what isn't.

In australia; the rules on night jumps are as follows;
Quote:
Night descents

5.5.1. Night descents shall be restricted to holders of Certificate "C". However, a Chief Instructor or ASO may approve holders of Certificate "B" of outstanding competence, reliability and commonsense. Such approval is to be endorsed in the parachutist's log.

5.5.2. Night descents shall be made only under the following conditions:

(a) The aircraft is operated to Night VMC or IFR procedures;
(b) An approved lighted or luminous altimeter is worn;
(c) An approved flashlight is carried attached to the parachutist;
(d) Each parachutist has completed a course of instruction covering all aspects of night descents. (Instructor to endorse the parachutist's log.);
(e) The target area is illuminated so that it is clearly visible throughout the descent;
(f) Ground wind speed is below 12 knots.

5.5.3. At least the first three night descents shall be carried out in accordance with the provisions of an approved Training Operations Manual. Chief Instructor to endorse the parachutist's log. See also 6.6.

5.5.4. Pyrotechnic flares shall not be used during free fall on night descents.

5.5.5. Tinted or coloured goggles shall not be worn on night descents.

5.5.6. Ground to air communication with the aircraft at night shall be by radio unless otherwise approved by the DZSO.

No exlusions for Tandems.

Billvon and others have suggested that I have poor judgement for supporting such jumps.

WTF!

My question, as the decents are allowed by law in Australia is, what is so wrong with them?

Obviously you need a competant instructor and good lighting on the landing areas and good conditions (as stipulated by the rules).

But what is it that makes folks so adament that they are so dangerous?

Why jump from a plane at all?


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Mar 11, 2010, 2:36 PM
Post #44 of 78 (1530 views)
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Re: [rhys] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In australia; the rules on night jumps are as follows;
Quote:
Night descents

5.5.1. Night descents shall be restricted to holders of Certificate "C". However, a Chief Instructor or ASO may approve holders of Certificate "B" of outstanding competence, reliability and commonsense. Such approval is to be endorsed in the parachutist's log.

5.5.2. Night descents shall be made only under the following conditions:

(a) The aircraft is operated to Night VMC or IFR procedures;
(b) An approved lighted or luminous altimeter is worn;
(c) An approved flashlight is carried attached to the parachutist;
(d) Each parachutist has completed a course of instruction covering all aspects of night descents. (Instructor to endorse the parachutist's log.);
(e) The target area is illuminated so that it is clearly visible throughout the descent;
(f) Ground wind speed is below 12 knots.

Are you saying the tandem passenger holds a certificate per 5.5.1?


(This post was edited by riggerpaul on Mar 11, 2010, 2:37 PM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Mar 11, 2010, 7:18 PM
Post #45 of 78 (1483 views)
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Re: [rhys] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with riggerpaul, 5.5.1 pretty much excludes tandems from being done. Thus tandems at night in Australia are illegal by Australian rules, IMO based on the laws you posted.

Matt


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 11, 2010, 11:42 PM
Post #46 of 78 (1445 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Are you saying the tandem passenger holds a certificate per 5.5.1?

Quote:
5.8.7. The following Operational Regulations shall apply to the Tandem-Master but not to the student: 5.1.5, 5.1.8, 5.2.7, 5.3.1, 5.5.1, 5.7.5, 5.7.6, 5.7.7, 5.7.8, 5.7.9, 6.1.6, 6.1.7.A,

APF OP. REGS

No. they don't have to, the tandem master controls everything, the passenger can contribute but ultimately the tandem master is in control and this is why the above quoted exclusions are there!


(This post was edited by rhys on Mar 11, 2010, 11:44 PM)


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 11, 2010, 11:45 PM
Post #47 of 78 (1442 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I agree with riggerpaul, 5.5.1 pretty much excludes tandems from being done. Thus tandems at night in Australia are illegal by Australian rules, IMO based on the laws you posted.

i should have included the above posted exclusions, that should clear it up for ya.

Now that that is cleared up, what is wrong with night tandems then?


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 12, 2010, 12:48 AM
Post #48 of 78 (1435 views)
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Re: [rhys] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

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Now that that is cleared up, what is wrong with night tandems then?

They increase the danger to the passenger and take away most of the visual aspect of the jumps. But I guess for a Tandem mill that is not a big priority. Its get um up get um out and grab the next one. I would think that it wouldnt take long for that to grow old.

Sparky


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 12, 2010, 1:00 AM
Post #49 of 78 (1434 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They increase the danger to the passenger and take away most of the visual aspect of the jumps. But I guess for a Tandem mill that is not a big priority. Its get um up get um out and grab the next one. I would think that it wouldnt take long for that to grow old.

Sparky

The visuals of the city below glowing at night is nothing short of spectacular, the landing is a little different but nothing too radical.

It seems a though you have something against tandem operations that do large numbers.

How is it any different to a small cessna dropzone?

we spend at least an hour with each customer as we have a 20 minute bus ride to the airport.


BMFin

Mar 12, 2010, 4:22 AM
Post #50 of 78 (1418 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with rhys.

As long as you inform the customer about the increased risk factor, I fail to see a why a gear mfg, national aviaton authority or anyone else should make the decision on behalf of the customer.

And night jumps are most definetly not boring..


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