Forums: Skydiving: Tandem Skydiving:
Status of night tandem jumps...

 


Guru312  (C 6814)

May 9, 2005, 7:09 PM
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Status of night tandem jumps... Can't Post

I spent almost 45 minutes on the USPA website in an attempt at finding regulations on night tandem jumps. I wasn't able to find anything in the SIM or any other on-line manuals.

I did note that night jumps are considered 'extraordinary' so I'm assuming night tandems aren't terribly common.

Can anyone tell me the situation with night tandem jumps?

Do any DZs actively encourage or advertise for them?

What would be representative cost for such a jump?

I have a quite a few night jumps and always thought they were more fun than day jumps. Night tandems would be a trip...

Thanks!


Travman  (E License)

May 9, 2005, 7:13 PM
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I can't help with the rules in the US, but the australian Op Regs are as follows
5.7.17. Night tandem jumps with a student who does not hold at least a Certificate "A" may be made only as display jumps by a tandem-master who has made at least 100 previous tandem descents as tandem-master, and in accordance with 5.7.16.


billbooth  (D 3546)

May 9, 2005, 7:17 PM
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There is little or no reason, or benefit, to take a newbie tandem student on a night jump. Night jumps are simply more dangerous than day jumps, so we discourage them.


AggieDave  (D License)

May 9, 2005, 7:49 PM
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Mr. Booth,

I was under the impression that the USPA did more then just discourage them. It is my understanding that all student jumpers must have landed prior to actual sunset, and a tandem skydive is a student jump, thus night tandems were forbidden except in special cases with written permission from the USPA.

Am I wrong in that understanding?


Guru312  (C 6814)

May 9, 2005, 9:05 PM
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In reply to:
There is little or no reason, or benefit, to take a newbie tandem student on a night jump. Night jumps are simply more dangerous than day jumps, so we discourage them.

This I understand. But I'm asking for 'specific' reference to official doctrine.

I flew one of the first half dozen stadium jumps. Stadium jumps were highly discouraged; now USPA Pro certification mentions stadiums by name. So times change...

Tandem and AFF were long discouraged as you know better than most.

Maybe DZs are missing an extra money-maker by not figuring how to sell night tandems to wuffos. Cool


Zenister  (A 42)

May 9, 2005, 10:20 PM
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a night tandem would seem like a waste of money to me... even as a licensed skydiver... the visuals are a big part of skydiving.. what are the chances a first time jumper is going to be aware enough to really recognize the limited sight picture they will get by doing a night jump?


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

May 9, 2005, 11:05 PM
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Re: [Zenister] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In reply to:
what are the chances a first time jumper is going to be aware enough to really recognize the limited sight picture they will get by doing a night jump?

Unless the tandem was over the city lights of Los Angeles or San Fransisco! Wink


Be safe.
Ed


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 10, 2005, 12:02 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Mr. Booth,

I was under the impression that the USPA did more then just discourage them. It is my understanding that all student jumpers must have landed prior to actual sunset, and a tandem skydive is a student jump, thus night tandems were forbidden except in special cases with written permission from the USPA.

Am I wrong in that understanding?

2005 SIM: Sec. 2-1-E9

"All student jumps must be completed between official sunrise and sunset. [NW]"

And tandem passengers are considered students. The [NW] means Non Waiver-able

Sparky


dragon2  (D 101989)

May 10, 2005, 12:48 AM
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I did a night tandem jump because I have always been sort of nightblind, and after Lasik I wanted to see if my eyes had improved enough for me to do a night jump on my own. I was told I could ask a TM but I had to ask an experienced one. No regs, just common sense.

It was a blast!

Turned out I could see fine, however my sense of direction was gone, the TM was screaming in my ear in freefall and pointing, but I couldn´t find the lit T...

The next year I did do a night jump on my own, with 10 of us jumping in what turned out to be too much wind, noone ended up at the DZ but most were close, I ended up miles away CrazyBlush

A very experienced TM took his kid up on the same load, we think she´s the youngest night tandem passenger here. This was her 2nd tandem. She loved it! And some of the girls here that are afraid to do night jumps or are night blind are now thinking about asking their bf TMs about doing a night tandem as well, to see what it´s like, but not all TM´s will do it.


Zenister  (A 42)

May 10, 2005, 1:19 AM
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In reply to:

In reply to:
what are the chances a first time jumper is going to be aware enough to really recognize the limited sight picture they will get by doing a night jump?

Unless the tandem was over the city lights of Los Angeles or San Fransisco! Wink

personally i'm waiting for Skydive Las Vegas to become a real dropzone so we can do night jumps there...Cool


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

May 10, 2005, 1:33 AM
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Hm. There are some places where night does not mean real darkness. But you are right it can not be done, not even in Finland. No student jump is allowed between sunset and sunrise.


outlawphx  (D 15712)

May 10, 2005, 7:03 AM
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I've done about 10 night jumps in Vegas, including a couple demos, back when the dropzone was in town. I can't imagine anyplace cooler for night jumps Cool


Zenister  (A 42)

May 10, 2005, 12:01 PM
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yea i'd even put the time in to get my PRO rating and wear the rhinestone jump suit to do a few if that were still an option....


AggieDave  (D License)

May 10, 2005, 2:44 PM
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Re: [mjosparky] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
2005 SIM: Sec. 2-1-E9

"All student jumps must be completed between official sunrise and sunset. [NW]"

And tandem passengers are considered students. The [NW] means Non Waiver-able

Then how about those special demo at night/dusk tandems we've seen done? That was my point about the "special cases."


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 10, 2005, 5:05 PM
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In reply to:
Then how about those special demo at night/dusk tandems we've seen done? That was my point about the "special cases."

I am just quoting the SIM.

You don't think there is any chance that someone would violate one of the BSR's do you?
TongueSmile

Sparky


ccq  (D 23345)

May 11, 2005, 10:09 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I hate to put on my official USPA hat because it makes me look funny being decorated with many golden stars and magic lightning bolts, but I can probably help here. I had a situation in my region where I had to inquire about this issue specifically. What came out of the S&T Committee and USPA Headquarters is that tandem jumps with students are classified as student jumps and thus prohibited from occurring at night (per the below BSR). Nothing in the BSR's specifically addresses the case where a licensed jumper is on the front of the tandem, thus it is technically "legal."

Tandem demos are whole separate ball of wax with the requisite BSR waivers and other such fun.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
--Q
Pacific Regional Director

In reply to:
Quote:
2005 SIM: Sec. 2-1-E9

"All student jumps must be completed between official sunrise and sunset. [NW]"

And tandem passengers are considered students. The [NW] means Non Waiver-able

Then how about those special demo at night/dusk tandems we've seen done? That was my point about the "special cases."


AggieDave  (D License)

May 11, 2005, 11:35 PM
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Hey, thanks for the "straight poop." Those little details have been sort of bugging me the past 2 years (since I got my TI, basically), but since it didn't effect me personally I never took the time to get the full info from the USPA. Thanks.Smile


livendive  (D 21415)

May 12, 2005, 8:55 AM
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Re: [Zenister] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
a night tandem would seem like a waste of money to me... even as a licensed skydiver... the visuals are a big part of skydiving.. what are the chances a first time jumper is going to be aware enough to really recognize the limited sight picture they will get by doing a night jump?

What about for someone who has a slew of tandems and no interest in learning how to jump on their own? Hypothetically speaking of course.

Blues,
Dave


wuffo

May 12, 2005, 11:45 AM
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Re: [billbooth] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There is little or no reason, or benefit, to take a newbie tandem student on a night jump.
I've talked to several instructors who have been forced by ASC in Cedartown to do tandems until midnight. This has been done many, many times at that dz. So I'd say if there's a benefit, it is that the dz can get as much money out of a day's jumping as possible.


rhys  (D 95)

Feb 1, 2010, 4:27 AM
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In reply to:
I can't help with the rules in the US, but the australian Op Regs are as follows
5.7.17. Night tandem jumps with a student who does not hold at least a Certificate "A" may be made only as display jumps by a tandem-master who has made at least 100 previous tandem descents as tandem-master, and in accordance with 5.7.16.

just came down from my first night tandem, it was awesome, the moon reflecing off the ocean, the lights of wollongong and is neighboring suburbs...

awesome.

All by the book too!


RIGGER160  (D 12345)

Feb 1, 2010, 3:30 PM
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Re: [ccq] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

What defines a student?


VideoFly  (D 25621)

Feb 1, 2010, 4:43 PM
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Re: [Guru312] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Would night tandem jumps with a B or C license holder on the front count as night jumps toward their D license?


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Feb 1, 2010, 4:53 PM
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Re: [RIGGER160] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Buy USPA standards any Skydiver not yet licensed.

The "A" License Prof. Card signed off and stamped is "Official", one need not wait on the USPA plastic card to be in hand.

Matt


labrys  (D 29848)

Feb 1, 2010, 5:33 PM
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Quote:
Would night tandem jumps with a B or C license holder on the front count as night jumps toward their D license?
Quote:

Not for the solo Wink and it sounds like a really bad idea for a group jump unless there's a lighted drogue.


VideoFly  (D 25621)

Feb 1, 2010, 5:57 PM
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Good points that I didn't think of.


dorbie

Feb 28, 2010, 11:23 PM
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Re: [billbooth] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is little or no reason, or benefit, to take a newbie tandem student on a night jump. Night jumps are simply more dangerous than day jumps, so we discourage them.

The same could be said of Tandem jumps at the North Pole.


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 1, 2010, 12:47 AM
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In reply to:
The same could be said of Tandem jumps at the North Pole.

or mount everest...


BMFin

Mar 1, 2010, 5:41 AM
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In reply to:
I hate to put on my official USPA hat because it makes me look funny being decorated with many golden stars and magic lightning bolts, but I can probably help here. I had a situation in my region where I had to inquire about this issue specifically. What came out of the S&T Committee and USPA Headquarters is that tandem jumps with students are classified as student jumps and thus prohibited from occurring at night (per the below BSR). Nothing in the BSR's specifically addresses the case where a licensed jumper is on the front of the tandem, thus it is technically "legal."

Im curious what is the legal status or these rules set by USPA ? Arent they just internal rules of a private organization ?

In other words, is there any reason why wouldnt you be able to rent a cessna and make the jump as a non-USPA operation ?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 1, 2010, 10:46 AM
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"... I'm curious what is the legal status or these rules set by USPA ? Aren't they just internal rules of a private organization ?

In other words, is there any reason why wouldn't you be able to rent a cessna and make the jump as a non-USPA operation ?
........................................................................

We could debate "legalities" all day, but the bottom line is that USPA, FAA, manufacturer, etc. policies are considered "best practices."
If you injure a student - while operating outside of USPA guidelines - you stand alone in court.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 1, 2010, 10:49 AM
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Just because I have done a few dumb things (e.g. "pushing daylight" while trying to finish the last few tandem students at the end of a busy day) does not mean that you should follow my bad example.

Night tandems are "high risk, low return."
I don't enjoy doing them.
The student enjoys them half as much,
and risk increases exponentially.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 1, 2010, 10:54 AM
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Re: [wuffo] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
There is little or no reason, or benefit, to take a newbie tandem student on a night jump.
I've talked to several instructors who have been forced by ASC in Cedartown to do tandems until midnight. This has been done many, many times at that dz. So I'd say if there's a benefit, it is that the dz can get as much money out of a day's jumping as possible.

Did anybody notice this one?


alabamaskydiver

Mar 1, 2010, 11:04 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
There is little or no reason, or benefit, to take a newbie tandem student on a night jump.
I've talked to several instructors who have been forced by ASC in Cedartown to do tandems until midnight. This has been done many, many times at that dz. So I'd say if there's a benefit, it is that the dz can get as much money out of a day's jumping as possible.

Did anybody notice this one?

Why should this be any surprise? They don't bother to abide by any State or Federal Laws, so why in the hell would any of us think for a second that they would abide by a rule (or guide line) set forth by a private entity? I don't expect anything less of those assholes.


BMFin

Mar 1, 2010, 12:50 PM
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In reply to:
We could debate "legalities" all day, but the bottom line is that USPA, FAA, manufacturer, etc. policies are considered "best practices."
If you injure a student - while operating outside of USPA guidelines - you stand alone in court.

I agree that night tandems arent as safe as tandems during the day.

I was merely interested on the legal side here.


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 1, 2010, 9:55 PM
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In reply to:
Night tandems are "high risk, low return."
I don't enjoy doing them.
The student enjoys them half as much,
and risk increases exponentially.

The last point I might agree with, but the others are ridiculous.


We will offer night tandems in the short future, we tested them last month with great success.

The customers are willing to pay twice as much.($600)

We will be paid more than 3 times as much (circa $150 p/j, yet be determined), no videos.

The main problem is the loss of a malfunctioned main parachute but there are also ways around that, such as location beckons.

I enjoyed my night tandem as much as the customer did. Our wind limits would be reduced and we would not use our cloud manual so only a clear line of sight and less than 15knots (yet to be determined).

What is your justification to determine these decisions for those other than yourself?


(This post was edited by rhys on Mar 1, 2010, 9:57 PM)


skydive4u2  (D 8891)

Mar 2, 2010, 8:11 PM
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Re: [BillyVance] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I noticed it. And it is complete BULLSHIT. It amazes me how some people who have an axe to grind against Skyride make up any kind of shit they can think of against ASC. "Somebody who worked at ASC told me that they were FORCED to do night tantems." I call bullshit !!! I have worked ther for 10 years. I have seen night tandems there. I have seen night tandems a a lot of other dropzones. This was YEARS ago when it was a grey area . Once it was established they were never done at night at ASC. That was several years ago. When it WAS happening, I said no,I don't want to do night tandems. The management said ok. No one tried to MAKE me do night tandems. Any tandem instructor that did do night tandems did them because he WANTED to. There were several other tandem instructors that said no. I NEVER saw anyone tell anyone they HAD to do them. Some did night tandems, some did not. It was their choice. I usually try to stay out of the politics, but it just amazes me how some people tries to say ANYTHING they can against ASC,whether true or not, when they are really mad at Skyride. I am not saying ASC is a bunch of angels, but on this one subject they are NOT guilty. I was there , and I KNOW what did or did not happen. This is bullshit. And mostly it is put out by people who don't even have the balls to identify themselfs. People like Chris Spense, who bash ASC and says who he is, I respect. Even Billy Vance, bless his heart, I respect. But the people that talk shit and hide behind annonamous accounts, I do not respect. If you want to badmouth someone, at least be a man and identify yourself.


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 7, 2010, 1:58 AM
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In reply to:
I have seen night tandems there. I have seen night tandems a a lot of other dropzones. This was YEARS ago when it was a grey area . Once it was established they were never done at night at ASC. That was several years ago. When it WAS happening, I said no,I don't want to do night tandems. The management said ok. No one tried to MAKE me do night tandems. Any tandem instructor that did do night tandems did them because he WANTED to. There were several other tandem instructors that said no. I NEVER saw anyone tell anyone they HAD to do them.

Are you talking about bonafide night jumps with lights on the landing area, lights on the jumpers and luminated altis etc, or are you talkng about jumping fter dark to finish the day?


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Mar 10, 2010, 10:25 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
We could debate "legalities" all day, but the bottom line is that USPA, FAA, manufacturer, etc. policies are considered "best practices."
If you injure a student - while operating outside of USPA guidelines - you stand alone in court.

I agree that night tandems arent as safe as tandems during the day.

I was merely interested on the legal side here.
The USPA has no legal authority. The FARs do not specifically ban them.


alabamaskydiver

Mar 10, 2010, 5:01 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
There is little or no reason, or benefit, to take a newbie tandem student on a night jump.
I've talked to several instructors who have been forced by ASC in Cedartown to do tandems until midnight. This has been done many, many times at that dz. So I'd say if there's a benefit, it is that the dz can get as much money out of a day's jumping as possible.

Did anybody notice this one?

Why should this be any surprise? They don't bother to abide by any State or Federal Laws, so why in the hell would any of us think for a second that they would abide by a rule (or guide line) set forth by a private entity? I don't expect anything less of those assholes.

How come no one has challenged Fast Eddie Grantland?

Fact: ASC Still does Night Tandems ASC TN is proof of that. The three Tandem Instructors USPA received the complaint about was CPT Josh Holer, Jeff Fincher and Taylor Smith. Fincher admitted to them after the fact as well as CPT Holer.

Fact: Mike Gruell did night Tandems and only missed being puniched as the USPA investigation could not find eveidence till AFTER they sealed the case and dismissed it. Mike even admitted to it on DZ.com.

Fact: Bill Boothe and Ted Strong have NEVER allowed Night Tandems, only exception is the Military and the first "non military" exception was the recent world record (but they where Military Active Duty so it kind of didn't matter), there was never a "gray area", the BSR's show that.

Fact: Fast Eddie is lying.


skydive4u2  (D 8891)

Mar 10, 2010, 7:30 PM
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I am NOT lying. I do not lie. I have never jumped at the DZ in Tennessee. I do not know WHAT they do up there. I was talking about the ASC in Cedartown , Georgia. I can tell you there has NOT been a night tandem there in a long , long time. I was ONLY addressing the person that said they are happening NOW. And they are NOT. By the way, I invite you to come to my FACE and call me a liar. We can discuss it like real men, face to face. NOT by calling someone a liar on the nice safe internet. I notice you do not even have your name or anything on your profile. My name is on my profile. Just about everyone knows me AND where to find me. Come on by anytime and we can " talk".


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 10, 2010, 8:12 PM
Post #40 of 78 (1609 views)
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Re: [skydive4u2] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

No threats. Your one warning.


kj126  (D 28079)

Mar 10, 2010, 8:54 PM
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In reply to:
I am NOT lying. I do not lie. .

Lets see, you drive from huntsville passing through the small town of Albertville, (home town) into a small convienent store with a semi cute blond telling her to come and jump over at cedar town because there is no where in north Alabama to go.

Yep, Im that TI/AFFI at a local DZ.

Care to retract said statement.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 10, 2010, 10:28 PM
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In reply to:
No threats. Your one warning.

I didn't see any threats. I know him, he's really a nice guy that just happens to work there, naturally to my chagrin... Tongue


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 11, 2010, 2:26 PM
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In reply to:
I thought the manufacturers dictated such rules, and that they strictly prohibit night tandems. Is there a manufacturer that allows them, or is this a purely rogue activity?

manufacturers may recommend things to foriegn bodies, but the local aviation autority is the ultimate decider of what is allowed and what isn't.

In australia; the rules on night jumps are as follows;
Quote:
Night descents

5.5.1. Night descents shall be restricted to holders of Certificate "C". However, a Chief Instructor or ASO may approve holders of Certificate "B" of outstanding competence, reliability and commonsense. Such approval is to be endorsed in the parachutist's log.

5.5.2. Night descents shall be made only under the following conditions:

(a) The aircraft is operated to Night VMC or IFR procedures;
(b) An approved lighted or luminous altimeter is worn;
(c) An approved flashlight is carried attached to the parachutist;
(d) Each parachutist has completed a course of instruction covering all aspects of night descents. (Instructor to endorse the parachutist's log.);
(e) The target area is illuminated so that it is clearly visible throughout the descent;
(f) Ground wind speed is below 12 knots.

5.5.3. At least the first three night descents shall be carried out in accordance with the provisions of an approved Training Operations Manual. Chief Instructor to endorse the parachutist's log. See also 6.6.

5.5.4. Pyrotechnic flares shall not be used during free fall on night descents.

5.5.5. Tinted or coloured goggles shall not be worn on night descents.

5.5.6. Ground to air communication with the aircraft at night shall be by radio unless otherwise approved by the DZSO.

No exlusions for Tandems.

Billvon and others have suggested that I have poor judgement for supporting such jumps.

WTF!

My question, as the decents are allowed by law in Australia is, what is so wrong with them?

Obviously you need a competant instructor and good lighting on the landing areas and good conditions (as stipulated by the rules).

But what is it that makes folks so adament that they are so dangerous?

Why jump from a plane at all?


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Mar 11, 2010, 2:36 PM
Post #44 of 78 (1529 views)
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Re: [rhys] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In australia; the rules on night jumps are as follows;
Quote:
Night descents

5.5.1. Night descents shall be restricted to holders of Certificate "C". However, a Chief Instructor or ASO may approve holders of Certificate "B" of outstanding competence, reliability and commonsense. Such approval is to be endorsed in the parachutist's log.

5.5.2. Night descents shall be made only under the following conditions:

(a) The aircraft is operated to Night VMC or IFR procedures;
(b) An approved lighted or luminous altimeter is worn;
(c) An approved flashlight is carried attached to the parachutist;
(d) Each parachutist has completed a course of instruction covering all aspects of night descents. (Instructor to endorse the parachutist's log.);
(e) The target area is illuminated so that it is clearly visible throughout the descent;
(f) Ground wind speed is below 12 knots.

Are you saying the tandem passenger holds a certificate per 5.5.1?


(This post was edited by riggerpaul on Mar 11, 2010, 2:37 PM)


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Mar 11, 2010, 7:18 PM
Post #45 of 78 (1482 views)
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Re: [rhys] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with riggerpaul, 5.5.1 pretty much excludes tandems from being done. Thus tandems at night in Australia are illegal by Australian rules, IMO based on the laws you posted.

Matt


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 11, 2010, 11:42 PM
Post #46 of 78 (1444 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Are you saying the tandem passenger holds a certificate per 5.5.1?

Quote:
5.8.7. The following Operational Regulations shall apply to the Tandem-Master but not to the student: 5.1.5, 5.1.8, 5.2.7, 5.3.1, 5.5.1, 5.7.5, 5.7.6, 5.7.7, 5.7.8, 5.7.9, 6.1.6, 6.1.7.A,

APF OP. REGS

No. they don't have to, the tandem master controls everything, the passenger can contribute but ultimately the tandem master is in control and this is why the above quoted exclusions are there!


(This post was edited by rhys on Mar 11, 2010, 11:44 PM)


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 11, 2010, 11:45 PM
Post #47 of 78 (1441 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I agree with riggerpaul, 5.5.1 pretty much excludes tandems from being done. Thus tandems at night in Australia are illegal by Australian rules, IMO based on the laws you posted.

i should have included the above posted exclusions, that should clear it up for ya.

Now that that is cleared up, what is wrong with night tandems then?


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 12, 2010, 12:48 AM
Post #48 of 78 (1434 views)
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Re: [rhys] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now that that is cleared up, what is wrong with night tandems then?

They increase the danger to the passenger and take away most of the visual aspect of the jumps. But I guess for a Tandem mill that is not a big priority. Its get ‘um up get ‘um out and grab the next one. I would think that it wouldn’t take long for that to grow old.

Sparky


rhys  (D 95)

Mar 12, 2010, 1:00 AM
Post #49 of 78 (1433 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They increase the danger to the passenger and take away most of the visual aspect of the jumps. But I guess for a Tandem mill that is not a big priority. Its get ‘um up get ‘um out and grab the next one. I would think that it wouldn’t take long for that to grow old.

Sparky

The visuals of the city below glowing at night is nothing short of spectacular, the landing is a little different but nothing too radical.

It seems a though you have something against tandem operations that do large numbers.

How is it any different to a small cessna dropzone?

we spend at least an hour with each customer as we have a 20 minute bus ride to the airport.


BMFin

Mar 12, 2010, 4:22 AM
Post #50 of 78 (1417 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with rhys.

As long as you inform the customer about the increased risk factor, I fail to see a why a gear mfg, national aviaton authority or anyone else should make the decision on behalf of the customer.

And night jumps are most definetly not boring..


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Mar 12, 2010, 4:55 AM
Post #51 of 78 (1402 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

BUT If the Gear Manf has a contract with you and you break it, your setting them up if they do not take action against you.

Other than making more money, I personally see no benefit that out ways the risk.

Of course the post omitting the additional reg was a nice set up.

If it is OK in Australia fine, but as of now it is not OK in the US by our Association.

Matt


timmyfitz  (D License)

Mar 12, 2010, 5:58 AM
Post #52 of 78 (1391 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In australia; the rules on night jumps are as follows;
Quote:
Night descents

5.5.1. Night descents shall be restricted to holders of Certificate "C". However, a Chief Instructor or ASO may approve holders of Certificate "B" of outstanding competence, reliability and commonsense. Such approval is to be endorsed in the parachutist's log.

5.5.2. Night descents shall be made only under the following conditions:

(a) The aircraft is operated to Night VMC or IFR procedures;
(b) An approved lighted or luminous altimeter is worn;
(c) An approved flashlight is carried attached to the parachutist;
(d) Each parachutist has completed a course of instruction covering all aspects of night descents. (Instructor to endorse the parachutist's log.);
(e) The target area is illuminated so that it is clearly visible throughout the descent;
(f) Ground wind speed is below 12 knots.

Are you saying the tandem passenger holds a certificate per 5.5.1?

Are you saying a tandem student (in the U.S.) has an A license or greater when they jump in winds greater than 14MPH?


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Mar 12, 2010, 6:16 AM
Post #53 of 78 (1387 views)
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Re: [timmyfitz] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In australia; the rules on night jumps are as follows;
Quote:
Night descents

5.5.1. Night descents shall be restricted to holders of Certificate "C". However, a Chief Instructor or ASO may approve holders of Certificate "B" of outstanding competence, reliability and commonsense. Such approval is to be endorsed in the parachutist's log.

5.5.2. Night descents shall be made only under the following conditions:

(a) The aircraft is operated to Night VMC or IFR procedures;
(b) An approved lighted or luminous altimeter is worn;
(c) An approved flashlight is carried attached to the parachutist;
(d) Each parachutist has completed a course of instruction covering all aspects of night descents. (Instructor to endorse the parachutist's log.);
(e) The target area is illuminated so that it is clearly visible throughout the descent;
(f) Ground wind speed is below 12 knots.

Are you saying the tandem passenger holds a certificate per 5.5.1?

Are you saying a tandem student (in the U.S.) has an A license or greater when they jump in winds greater than 14MPH?

USPA wind limits are for SOLO students.


hallux  (C License)

Mar 12, 2010, 7:17 AM
Post #54 of 78 (1373 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

the fact that wind limits are different for solo students and tandem "students" clearly shows that the USPA and every reasonable human on earth makes a distinction between REAL students and tandem "students". If a experienced instructor is trusted with making his own wind limits then why not trusted to do a night tandem. High winds are more dangerous than well planned night jumps.


skydive4u2  (D 8891)

Mar 12, 2010, 7:39 AM
Post #55 of 78 (1361 views)
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Re: [billvon] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

What threat ? I simply invited him to identify himself, instead of hiding behind a internet connection with NO NAME. I just do not like people who accuse someone of something and do not admit who is doing the accusing. Anything I got to say, I will say it and say who is saying it.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Mar 12, 2010, 7:51 AM
Post #56 of 78 (1356 views)
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Re: [hallux] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the fact that wind limits are different for solo students and tandem "students" clearly shows that the USPA and every reasonable human on earth makes a distinction between REAL students and tandem "students". If a experienced instructor is trusted with making his own wind limits then why not trusted to do a night tandem. High winds are more dangerous than well planned night jumps.

Maybe you weren't really talking to me.

I have not made or posted any judgment regarding night tandems.

rhys posted regulations that seemed to me to prohibit night tandems in his locale, though he posted those regulations as evidence that night tandems are legal legal for him.

I asked for clarification.

He quoted another regulation that answered my question, and I am satisfied with his answer.

timmyfitz asked about violating USPA student wind limits.

I pointed out that USPA student wind limits apply specifically to solo students.

If your question was posted to the world, then fine.

If your question was to me, you are asking the wrong person.

I am not trying to argue about night tandems one way or the other.


skydive4u2  (D 8891)

Mar 12, 2010, 8:01 AM
Post #57 of 78 (1353 views)
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Re: [kj126] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure, I invited her to Cedartown to jump. That is where I jump. I have NEVER told her there is no DZ in Alabama. On the very first time I talked to her SHE told ME about YOU and the dropzone in Cullman, Alabama where you jump. You had ALREADY told her several times, so how could I say there is no DZ in North Alabama. I know about Cullman. I have been there many times. I like everybody there. I have many people there who I consider my friends. I have known Curley for many years. He is a great guy. I have NEVER said anything bad about him or the DZ. I do not do that. I simply met the girl and invited her to the DZ where I jump at, just like I would expect YOU to do if you met someone. I am a SKYDIVER, not a polititian. I DO NOT get into the pissing contest of "this dropzone against that DZ".Nobody has EVER heard me try to take up for Skyride. I do not work at Skyride. I work and jump at ASC. I frequently invite people to come there and jump. I do NOT, however, say anything bad about other dropzones. I even tell young jumpers at my dropzone they SHOULD go and jump at other dropzones and meet other jumpers. I myself frequently go to other dropzones. Who wants to be stuck at the same place all the time ? Sorry if this is long, but it pisses me off when people assume that just because I jump at another DZ than theirs I must be a bad person. Meyby we will meet each other some time. I am sure I will think you are a nice person and I would hope you think the same about me. Blue skies.


skydive4u2  (D 8891)

Mar 12, 2010, 8:02 AM
Post #58 of 78 (1353 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you, Billy.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 12, 2010, 8:57 AM
Post #59 of 78 (1338 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
No threats. Your one warning.

I didn't see any threats.

Viewing the context of the entire post: by putting the word "talk" inside quotation marks, he converted an ambiguous statement into an implied threat.

Appeal denied; the ruling of the lower court is affirmed.

In reply to:
Tongue

Don't make faces at the Court.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 12, 2010, 9:24 AM
Post #60 of 78 (1325 views)
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Re: [hallux] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the fact that wind limits are different for solo students and tandem "students" clearly shows that the USPA and every reasonable human on earth makes a distinction between REAL students and tandem "students". If a experienced instructor is trusted with making his own wind limits then why not trusted to do a night tandem. High winds are more dangerous than well planned night jumps.


Solo students are flying their own very lightly loaded canopy while a tandem student has and licensed TI flying a more heavily loaded canopy. I don’t always see eye to eye with USPA but seems reasonable. And no, higher winds, within reason, are not a dangerous as flying a tandem at night.

Sparky


hallux  (C License)

Mar 12, 2010, 9:53 AM
Post #61 of 78 (1322 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

wow! thanks for telling me the difference between tandem and solo Tongue Just so you know tandems arent always more heavily loaded. and high winds versus well organized night jumps is a matter of opinion and experience. I believe they can be close to the same playing field. I mean you just used wingloading and experience to justify tandems in higher winds. I believe the same could be done for night jumps. You just made my point for me.


skydive4u2  (D 8891)

Mar 12, 2010, 10:40 AM
Post #62 of 78 (1310 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, Andy, wouldn't you want to "talk" to someone if they did not even know you and called you a liar. I am at that DZ every week, and I know what is or is not happing there. I even stated that night tamdems did at one time happen. They no longer are being done.Not for several years.I doubt he is there, so who is he to call me a liar ? He is not even man enough to admit who he is. How much would you trust someone who will not even tell you his name ?


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 12, 2010, 10:47 AM
Post #63 of 78 (1308 views)
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Re: [skydive4u2] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, Andy, wouldn't you want to "talk" to someone if they did not even know you and called you a liar. I am at that DZ every week, and I know what is or is not happing there. I even stated that night tamdems did at one time happen. They no longer are being done.Not for several years.I doubt he is there, so who is he to call me a liar ? He is not even man enough to admit who he is. How much would you trust someone who will not even tell you his name ?

You lost your temper, which may be understandable. The implied threat got you a warning per the forum rules, and properly so

It's pretty easy to lose one's temper on here. I have, and a couple times when I rose too much to the bait, it earned me a warning. Come to think of it, one time it earned me a 2-week vacation from SC. It happens. Chalk it up as a learning experience, and move on.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 12, 2010, 11:11 AM
Post #64 of 78 (1296 views)
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Re: [hallux] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
.... High winds are more dangerous than well planned night jumps.
..."

.........................................................................

High winds are precisely why I don't enjoy doing night jumps.
Given that winds always shift after sunset, and given the GPS spotting skills of our pilots, it is impossible to predict whether I will land on the regular DZ (Pitt Meadows Airport), or in some distant farmer's field surrounded by wires.
Winds aloft forecasts are always "educated guesses" and we never really know what winds are doing until after we watch the first load land.
I hate to tell you how many hundred times I have retrieved tandems from the far end of the airport!

Unpredictable winds vastly increase the risk of landing "out" which is why I have not done a night tandem in the last decade.


skydive4u2  (D 8891)

Mar 12, 2010, 11:15 AM
Post #65 of 78 (1294 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, you are right. However, being a lawyer, I figured you would understand me wanting the right to confront my accuser, some ananymous jerk that wants to call someone names and does not even have the balls to admit who is doing the name calling. "Somebody" told him one thing. I told him something different, and he wants to call me a liar.I was actually there. HE was not. Maybe there should be a rule on this forum about calling someone a bad name.


skydive4u2  (D 8891)

Mar 12, 2010, 11:21 AM
Post #66 of 78 (1293 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

That is true. Another reason I never did night tandems is that if I happen to have a cut-a-way, I got a good chance I will never find my main canopy. At night , you would have a lot less idea where it landed. Would be a very expensive jump for me.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 12, 2010, 12:03 PM
Post #67 of 78 (1283 views)
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Re: [skydive4u2] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah, you are right. However, being a lawyer, I figured you would understand me wanting the right to confront my accuser, some ananymous jerk that wants to call someone names and does not even have the balls to admit who is doing the name calling.

Oh, I do. I also understand that sometimes the Judge has to warn us to cool our jets when we're out there for everyone to see and hear.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 12, 2010, 12:14 PM
Post #68 of 78 (1279 views)
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Re: [hallux] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
wow! thanks for telling me the difference between tandem and solo Tongue Just so you know tandems arent always more heavily loaded. and high winds versus well organized night jumps is a matter of opinion and experience. I believe they can be close to the same playing field. I mean you just used wingloading and experience to justify tandems in higher winds. I believe the same could be done for night jumps. You just made my point for me.

And I gave you my opinion. And my experience tells me night jumps in any form present greater potential for problems then landing in reasonable winds. A TI can use his experience and judgment to determine reasonable winds. Experience and judgment will not change the fact that a night jump is done in the dark.
Glad to help you out on the solo/tandem thing.

Sparky


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 12, 2010, 6:14 PM
Post #69 of 78 (1236 views)
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Re: [hallux] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
wow! thanks for telling me the difference between tandem and solo Tongue Just so you know tandems arent always more heavily loaded. and high winds versus well organized night jumps is a matter of opinion and experience. I believe they can be close to the same playing field. I mean you just used wingloading and experience to justify tandems in higher winds. I believe the same could be done for night jumps. You just made my point for me.

You're not that good.


skydive4u2  (D 8891)

Mar 12, 2010, 7:29 PM
Post #70 of 78 (1230 views)
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Re: [billvon] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been warned. Ok. I will not do it again. But will you please explain to me how he can call other people assholes, he can call me a liar , and I have read many threads on here in whice people are called cocksuckers, mother fuckers, son of a bitches and many other things and no warnings. But I put the word talk in italics and I get a warning. Seems a little off balance to me. I do not know where you live, but around here calling someone those things would cause a lot more trouble than a word in italics. Just wondering. Would YOU get more upset about someone calling YOU these names or the italics around the word talk. Again, I WILL go by your rules, but I think HE should have been spoken to also. Or, do the rules only apply to people who happen to LIKE ASC ?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 13, 2010, 1:36 PM
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Re: [Guru312] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Isuspect that USPA says very little about night tandem jumps for the same reason that they say very little about blast handles.

Fore xample, MIL SPEC blast handles were briefly fashionable in the late-1970s, but after too many people died because they could not pull them, because they were installed different than their original military design, USPA banned blast handles.

A few years later - after blast handles disappeared - USPA deleted the BSR banning blast handles, because it was cluttering up the BSRs and the problem had disappeared.

A similar logic explains why USPA BSRs say very little about night tandem jumps. Tandem manufacturers have always frowned upon night tandem jumps. Ergo very few USPA-affiliated DZs ever did night tandem jumps, ergo night tandem jumps are outside of normal operating procedures, ergo there is little point to mention night tandem jumps in USPA BSRs.

IOW Night tandem jumps are not mentioned in USPA BSRs, because most USPA-rated instructors consider night tandem jumps to be too difficult and too dangerous.

IOW Maybe night tandem jumps are not mentioned in USPA BSRs because the vast majority of USPA-affiliated TIs consider night tandem jumps to be silly.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner with more than 4300 tandem jumps


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 13, 2010, 10:20 PM
Post #72 of 78 (1165 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Isuspect that USPA says very little about night tandem jumps for the same reason that they say very little about blast handles.

Fore xample, MIL SPEC blast handles were briefly fashionable in the late-1970s, but after too many people died because they could not pull them, because they were installed different than their original military design, USPA banned blast handles.

A few years later - after blast handles disappeared - USPA deleted the BSR banning blast handles, because it was cluttering up the BSRs and the problem had disappeared.

Rob,

The real reason USPA backed away from “Blast Handles” is it dawned on them they had no authority to ban anything much less a TSO’d item. While some blasé handles were “after market” the the majority were on rigs TSO’d with the Blast Handle. It wasn’t the first time USPA stepped on their dick and as we have seen recently it wasn’t there last.

Sparky


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Mar 14, 2010, 3:36 PM
Post #73 of 78 (1107 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all, blast handles started as MIL SPEC.
I don't know if blast handles were ever mentioned in a civilian TSO.
The problem arose when civilians started installing blast handles differently than the military ever intended.
TSO testing standards were a bit ... "vague" back in the 1970s.

But I do have to agree with you that USPA has stepped on their !@#$ multiple times. Just ask Jan Meyer about how USPA handled Skyride and her!
Hah!
Hah!


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Mar 14, 2010, 8:23 PM
Post #74 of 78 (1084 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Rob,

Quote:
I don't know if blast handles were ever mentioned in a civilian TSO.

They first appeared on the CrossBow rig in ~'65. Originally, the XBO rig used a handle known as a Lollipop but due to one death ( actual cause unknown other than failure to pull ) and some bad-mouthing, Security switched to the blast handle.

Quote:
TSO testing standards were a bit ... "vague" back in the 1970s.

They were far easier to understand than a current TSO document; and if you like the current document, wait until you see the next generation. Crazy

JerryBaumchen


NickDG  (D 8904)

Mar 14, 2010, 9:47 PM
Post #75 of 78 (1073 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Anti-Windblast handles worked fine when you pulled like you're supposed to pull any ripcord handle - in a direction in-line with the ripcord housing. And that was if they were drilled out or not. And for the times they were the most snag resistant type handle available. There were some issues with the non-drilled out blast handles when jumpers tried pulling them at right angles, and a few other early jumpers mistook their open Capewell covers for the blast handle. I think it was the Brits (BPA) who banned them first then USPA followed suit like little ducklings.

What was really dangerous was a lot of people switched over to those white plastic reserve handles with the thin center post (because they were cheap) but as soon as the weather turned cold when the handle hit the swedge during a pull they shattered like glass . . .

NickD Smile


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Mar 15, 2010, 11:50 PM
Post #76 of 78 (455 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anti-Windblast handles worked fine when you pulled like you're supposed to pull any ripcord handle - in a direction in-line with the ripcord housing. And that was if they were drilled out or not. And for the times they were the most snag resistant type handle available. There were some issues with the non-drilled out blast handles when jumpers tried pulling them at right angles, and a few other early jumpers mistook their open Capewell covers for the blast handle. I think it was the Brits (BPA) who banned them first then USPA followed suit like little ducklings.

What was really dangerous was a lot of people switched over to those white plastic reserve handles with the thin center post (because they were cheap) but as soon as the weather turned cold when the handle hit the swedge during a pull they shattered like glass . . .

NickD Smile

USPA did what many organizations do; they tried to fix a training problem by throwing regulations at. Hundreds of jet pilots and air crew were able to figure the “Blast Handle” out and most of them had never jumped. Hell in those days you could have a right hand pull a left hand pull even a cross hand pull. That was just the main, on reserves you could have right, center, left and that was before including handles on the MLW. Anyone too dumb to pull their reserve handle is too dumb to jump. There was never any “official” recall or AD issued on the blast handle that I know of but there were a least 2 AD’s issued by the FAA on plastic handles. AD-80-13-01 and AD- 84-10-03

Sparky


kj126  (D 28079)

Mar 23, 2010, 4:12 PM
Post #77 of 78 (368 views)
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Re: [skydive4u2] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Damn big perm!

Sure, I think your just the person I want to get to know.
The type that calls my DZ because this little discussion got your panties in a bunch.Crazy

Did it hurt your feelersLaugh

Awwwwww! thats so cute.


skydive4u2  (D 8891)

Mar 23, 2010, 8:06 PM
Post #78 of 78 (343 views)
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Re: [kj126] Status of night tandem jumps... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Jason, The reason I talked to Curley is that I did not want him to think that I was telling people there is no DZ in North Alabama. I have been a friend of Curley for a long time and I would not do anything to hurt him or his dropzone. Auctually I have sent several people down to Cullman to skydive. I do not know why you and I seem to have a problem, but I would be happy to sit down with you and work it out. I am sorry if I stepped on your toes by talking to the girl at the convenience store. I talk to everyone I meet about skydiving. I usually try to stay out of the politics of skydiving. I only got on dz.com to explain the fact that ASC does not do night tandems. I am trying to offer an olive branch here. If you want to accept it, great. If not, well I tried.
Blue skies,
Fast Eddie



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