Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Slinks!

 

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mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

May 10, 2005, 11:07 AM
Post #51 of 123 (1035 views)
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Re: [brettpobastad] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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What I'm saying is that they do not fix a problem or markedly improve performance over what they may replace! And no one has shown my anything to disprove my theroy.

I agree to a good degree. I don't think slinks improved things markedly. I do feel they are an improvement over the rapide link though... just they are a very small improvement which is only likely to really mean the difference between life and death in very rare and specific circumstances.

Technically they are also stronger but I personally doubt that is going to make much of a difference in the scale of things... for whatever my opinion is worth. Both are strong enough

Consider the recent Mirage SB. It was triggered by an event which was caused by human error and resulted in no fatalities. It addressed what would be quite a rare cause of a fatality. Still however Mirage felt they could increase jumpers safety by issuing an SB.

I feel this is somewhat analogous to the difference between Slinks and Rapide links. There's nothing inherently wrong with a Rapide link which ought to cause someone to conclude they are dangerous. Equally there's nothing wrong with a pre-SB Mirage. But in both instances human error can cause a sticky situation which can easily result in a fatality... although in all previous occasions the jumpers involved were lucky.

Why should our choice of links be any different? Improperly installed slinks can fail catastrophically on opening. Improperly installed rapide links can fail at any time between opening and landing. The former is less likely to result in your death, ergo slinks are safer... at least in this one respect.

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I'm all for innovation and change. But let's understand the proceess behind each change and the reasoning and intent for it.

Me too. I think this sort of conversation is one of the best ways to do come to that understanding.

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But...I apologize for getting salty about it.

I didn't think you were. I certainly hope you don't feel I was. As I said I think this kind of conversation is precisely what is required for us to be able to fully explore the reasons why such changes take place.


pilotdave  (D License)

May 10, 2005, 11:12 AM
Post #52 of 123 (1031 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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With Slinks you won;t ever be in a situation of noticing a problem too low to cutaway. If they were to fail, they would fail completely, on deployment. You would know immediately.

I'm just curious... is that a proven fact? I personally use slinks on my main and reserve, but I'm just not 100% convinced a slink could never fail after opening. It's the lack of hardness in a slink compared to a rapide link that I wonder about. Less cut resistance. Couldn't one of those damaged slider grommets slowly cut through it during a canopy ride? Or some failure mode I can't even imagine...

Dave


Hooknswoop  (D License)

May 10, 2005, 11:18 AM
Post #53 of 123 (1028 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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I'm just curious... is that a proven fact? I personally use slinks on my main and reserve, but I'm just not 100% convinced a slink could never fail after opening. It's the lack of hardness in a slink compared to a rapide link that I wonder about. Less cut resistance. Couldn't one of those damaged slider grommets slowly cut through it during a canopy ride?

I heard about exactly that happening, a damaged slider grommet from a Rapide link wearing through a Slink. With a well cared for slider, it'll never happen since Slinks don't damage the slider grommets. It should never happen, but some people don't take care of their gear. All that being said, that is the only Slink failure I have ever heard of I have seen more Rapide failures than that and heard of a lot more.

I would like to hear one thing a Rapide link does better than a Slink. I don't think there are any.

Derek


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on May 10, 2005, 11:53 AM)


pilotdave  (D License)

May 10, 2005, 11:33 AM
Post #54 of 123 (1017 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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I would like to hear one thing a Rapide link does better than a Slink. I don't there are any.

Damages slider grommets better! Tongue

Dave


murps2000  (D 23114)

May 10, 2005, 12:09 PM
Post #55 of 123 (1003 views)
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Re: [brettpobastad] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

The original point I was trying to make was that soft links are not 'better' then metal links!
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That's like saying a Katana is not better than a Batwing.


dragon2  (D 101989)

May 10, 2005, 12:13 PM
Post #56 of 123 (1002 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
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I would like to hear one thing a Rapide link does better than a Slink. I don't there are any.

Damages slider grommets better! Tongue

I like the way I can hook 'em all together if I have a spare set, less hassle then looking for a ziplock baggie to put the slinks in Wink


The one thing I did like about french links was that it was easy to adjust the trim of my Lightning a bit by adding links. I think for crew most people still use french links, it's easy to tack big slider bumpers to 'em (don't think the pilgrim hat thingies will hold a spider coming down fast, but not sure, never tried).


Hooknswoop  (D License)

May 10, 2005, 12:28 PM
Post #57 of 123 (997 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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The one thing I did like about french links was that it was easy to adjust the trim of my Lightning a bit by adding links.

You can do that with Slinks.

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I think for crew most people still use french links, it's easy to tack big slider bumpers to 'em (don't think the pilgrim hat thingies will hold a spider coming down fast, but not sure, never tried).

The slider stops work really well and don't damage lines or need to be tacked like the vinyl slider bumpers do.

Derek


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 10, 2005, 1:07 PM
Post #58 of 123 (982 views)
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Re: [brettpobastad] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you going to respond to this post?

"Yes I am. And you did not answer the question. What need did they fill, and what problem did the fix?

Could it be that they are cheaper, lighter, were stylish when first introduced and thought to be easer to install?
Why is it that sports gear is the only gear that went to the Rapide link?

This thread is not about placement of a PC. "

Sparky


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

May 10, 2005, 1:21 PM
Post #59 of 123 (980 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

(sigh)

OK, let's try it this way...

Would it be a fair statement to say that square parachutes are 'better' than round parachutes?
My answer would be 'yes'

Would it be a fair statement to say that square parachutes are 'a whole lot better' than round parachutes?
My answer would also be 'yes'

Would it be a fair statement to say that round parachutes are now 'bad' because square parachutes exist?
My answer would be 'no'

Would it be a fair statement to say that the 3-ring release is 'better' then Capewells?
My answer would be 'yes'

Would it be a fair statement to say that the 3-ring release is 'a whole lot better' then Capewells?
My answer would be 'yes' again!

Would it be a fair statement to say that Capewells are now 'bad' because we have the 3-ring system available to us?
My answer would be 'no'

Would it be a fair statement to say that Slinks are 'better' than French Links?
My answer would be (for the sake of this argument) 'yes'

Would it be a fair statement to say that because we finally got Brett to admit that Slinks are 'better' than French Links, he might agree that Slinks are 'a whole lot better' than French Links?
I would answer, No, they are not 'a whole lot better' and roll my eyes.

Would it be a fair statement to say that the vast majority of skydivers out there who do use Slinks do so without understanding the concept?
Sadly, the answer seems to be 'yes'

Would it be a fair statement to say that Nigel's guitar amplifier is 'louder' than other amps since all the knobs on his go to 'Eleven'?
Ok, sure. I'll buy that.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

May 10, 2005, 1:33 PM
Post #60 of 123 (974 views)
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Re: [brettpobastad] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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The original point I was trying to make was that soft links are not 'better' then metal links!

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Would it be a fair statement to say that Slinks are 'better' than French Links?
My answer would be (for the sake of this argument) 'yes'

See, that wasn't so hard, was it?Sly

Derek


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

May 10, 2005, 2:06 PM
Post #61 of 123 (964 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Slinks are stronger than Rapide links.
For the sake of argument, I'll agree. But you must also agree that properly installed and maintained, the strength of both soft links and metal links is well past the point of what is required to do the job.

I don't ever remember hearing anything about a French link 'breaking' as far as the metal actually coming apart before the nylon lines or risers did.


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

May 10, 2005, 2:10 PM
Post #62 of 123 (962 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Slinks do not damage slider grommets.
Ya got me there, H&S!


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

May 10, 2005, 2:11 PM
Post #63 of 123 (961 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In reply to:
By the way, I'll put my money on Ed's rigger anyday.

Me too, sept me ain't me rigger nomo. Wink

I rig for myself now. Tongue


Be safe.
Ed


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

May 10, 2005, 2:22 PM
Post #64 of 123 (955 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Slinks do not bend open creating the possibility of the lines falling off too low for the jumper to do anything.
Right again, I guess. But do you really know what issues we may or may not have with soft links, long term? I bet if you crunched the numbers, you would conclude that soft link usage is a mear drop in the bucket when compared to French links. Certainly not even close to enough to make a real conclusion that there won't be unforseen problems down the road.

Has there ever been an incident where a French Link came apart and the lines came off the link at an altitude too low for the jumper to do anything about it and that jumper was hurt or killed?

(I'm not using this as part of my reasoning for prefering French links because that would be like using the argument that if and/or when soft links fail, they do so at a preferable time.)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

May 10, 2005, 2:30 PM
Post #65 of 123 (949 views)
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Re: [brettpobastad] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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For the sake of argument, I'll agree. But you must also agree that properly installed and maintained, the strength of both soft links and metal links is well past the point of what is required to do the job.

I don't ever remember hearing anything about a French link 'breaking' as far as the metal actually coming apart before the nylon lines or risers did.

The threads have stripped on Rapide links, letting the link bend open. Modern canopies don't use nylon lines.

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ight again, I guess. But do you really know what issues we may or may not have with soft links, long term

What do you consider long term? 1000, 2000, 3000+ jumps. Slinks have gone the distance without any long term problems.

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I bet if you crunched the numbers, you would conclude that soft link usage is a mear drop in the bucket when compared to French links.

I would disagree, there are a lot of Slinks out there.

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Has there ever been an incident where a French Link came apart and the lines came off the link at an altitude too low for the jumper to do anything about it and that jumper was hurt or killed?

Not that I know of. I do know of Rapide link failures though.

We've agreed that Slinks are better than Rapide links, but you still prefer Rapide links. Why?

Derek


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

May 10, 2005, 2:45 PM
Post #66 of 123 (944 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Slinks are easier to install, requiring no tools, no lock tite, and no nail polish, or slider bumpers.
Who says they are easier to install? You? That's an opinion and it shouldn't be on the list of deciding factors in any case. I think French links are MUCH easier to install. And I have seen with my own eyes two different instances of soft links being installed the wrong way.

You got me again on the 'tools' thing 'cause you gotta use a wrench but I wouldn't use nail polish or lock-tite. Don't need 'em. Never used 'em and never had a French link problem since I started using them way back when. Thousands and thousands of jumps and many, many canopies ago.

Yea, I don't see the need for slider bumpers either. I've used those Nylon or Delrin washers that go directly on the link between the lines. They work great!

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Slinks are easier to inspect for wear.
What? Says who? This is another 'opinion' and even if true, should not be used in any descision on which to use. And I think it's easier to inspect a French link. You can see all surfaces easily and the link can be rotated all the way through lines and risers for a complete inspection. Really all you have to do is make sure it is tight enough but not so tight as to crack the barrell. Finger tight plus a quarter turn does the trick (with a 'tool', of course).


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

May 10, 2005, 2:52 PM
Post #67 of 123 (939 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Slinks have less bulk.
You got me again, SWOOP-man. I cannot argue with you on that one and won't even try.

But how much difference is there really? I'm saying that only in extreme cases will it make any difference in performance, comfort or looks. But yes, the are less bulky.

(rolls eyes)

Soft cutaway cable housings have less bulk then metal ones as well. Maybe we should start putting those things back on.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

May 10, 2005, 2:54 PM
Post #68 of 123 (938 views)
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Re: [brettpobastad] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Who says they are easier to install? You?

Yep, me. I can install Slinks in less than half the time it takes to properly install Rapide links.

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You got me again on the 'tools' thing 'cause you gotta use a wrench but I wouldn't use nail polish or lock-tite. Don't need 'em.

Take a look at PD's reserve manual or Poynter's, you do need them. Rapide links can loosen over time, a match mark/toque stripe is a way of making inspection easier and lock tite helps prevent the link from loosening.

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Yea, I don't see the need for slider bumpers either. I've used those Nylon or Delrin washers that go directly on the link between the lines. They work great!

Um, those ARE slider bumpers.

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What? Says who? This is another 'opinion' and even if true, should not be used in any descision on which to use. And I think it's easier to inspect a French link. You can see all surfaces easily and the link can be rotated all the way through lines and risers for a complete inspection. Really all you have to do is make sure it is tight enough but not so tight as to crack the barrell. Finger tight plus a quarter turn does the trick (with a 'tool', of course).

You can spin a Slink too and don't need tools to inspect it. You can't see small cracks on Rapide links, especially if there on the threaded area. I guess you could use NDI, but that seems like way to much for a cheap link.

I thought we already agreed Slinks are better? Why would use Rapide links when Slinks are better?

Derek


(This post was edited by Hooknswoop on May 10, 2005, 2:58 PM)


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

May 10, 2005, 2:55 PM
Post #69 of 123 (937 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Slinks are better than Rapide links in every way.
Have you seen the movie SPINAL TAP? You DO realize that it was a farce and they were actually poking fun at the band, don't you.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

May 10, 2005, 2:59 PM
Post #70 of 123 (932 views)
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Re: [brettpobastad] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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Have you seen the movie SPINAL TAP?

No. What's your point?

Derek


brettpobastad  (D 12823)

May 10, 2005, 3:18 PM
Post #71 of 123 (934 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Never mind. You just made it for me.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

May 10, 2005, 4:38 PM
Post #72 of 123 (923 views)
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Re: [brettpobastad] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I hear something under the bridge, could it be a Troll?Mad


pilotdave  (D License)

May 10, 2005, 5:56 PM
Post #73 of 123 (913 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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You can spin a Slink too and don't need tools to inspect it.

What if it's tacked down? Do you think slinks should be, or it doesn't matter? Mine have taken a pretty good set and don't rotate very often anymore, but some people still recommend tacking them in place. Adds to the installation time too, if you think it's necessary...

Dave


Hooknswoop  (D License)

May 10, 2005, 6:04 PM
Post #74 of 123 (911 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

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What if it's tacked down? Do you think slinks should be, or it doesn't matter?

I don't think it matters. The only time it has been an issue is when people have stowed their excess steering line in the riser and it snagged the link. I don't think it is a good idea to stow excess in the loop on the riser for the link. A better solution is on the front of each rear riser like RWS's Trulock risers.

Derek


crazydiver  (D 28022)

May 10, 2005, 9:24 PM
Post #75 of 123 (892 views)
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Re: [brettpobastad] Slinks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont think that anyone on this forum is saying that rapides are bad, but they are (and myself) saying that rapide links are inferior to slinks. I see on your profile that you jump a racer, with a batwing, and a phantom round reserve. I have jumped racers. They are comfortable, but are inferior products on the market today. Round reserves are inferior products. Batwings are now inferior products. Not saying that your gear is bad, but I am saying that you may not realize some real advantages to state of the art equipment. Its more fun and safer.

Let me compare your thoughts to this....

A round parachute made twenty years ago is most likely just as safe as it was years ago given that its been taken care of. However...square parachutes are much safer to fly and land. Just as rapide links are not bad, slinks provide more advantages.

In the same respect...a 1978 buick gets me from point a to point b in the same manner as a 2001 honda civic does...but the civic is going to do it in a better way. The buick isn't bad...but the civic is more advanced and more desireable...not becasue of looks only, but moreso because of its safety and efficiency features.

Keep in mind that while your gear preferences may be a few years behind...which is fine...I truly believe no one should be forced to stop jumping their gear if they feel it is safe and useful and a rigger says its ok...but keep an open mind to new products.

If you were open to new ideas and checked out their advantages...you wouldn't be jumping a racer with a round reserve and a batwing.


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