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student with weights?

 


Punky_Monkey

Apr 15, 2005, 5:23 PM
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student with weights? Can't Post

I have a question for all of you instructors out there? How do you feel of a student with 24 jumps wearing weights? I realize that I need to be able to fly my body without them. The problem lies in that since I have started jumping my coaches and instructors have always been about 5 feet below me. I am starting to get really fustrated with this and have started to realize, after being in the tunnel, that I have just kind of been winging it. It would have been nice early on to have been able to get hand singles in the air.

I am suppose to start my docking this weekend. Ok, I can adjust my fall rate and maybe get down to them. But what about the adjusted fall rate with docking?

Any ideas? I need to finish this so I can get my A liscense.

Thanks!!


firstime  (B 28972)

Apr 15, 2005, 7:50 PM
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

they would not allow me weights until I became
profiecent with my fall rate. Forget about the weights,
you can do it without them unless your under 100lbs.
Just enjoy skydiving as it is now, try not to get so techy so early in your career. Relax and enjoy.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Apr 15, 2005, 9:35 PM
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Never let an Instructor or Coach tell you that you need to wear weights so you can fall as fast as them.

THEY need to "dress for success" on your coach jumps and adjust to YOUR fallrate.

If they can not, I would find another DZ that has Instructors that can.



Be safe.
Ed


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Apr 16, 2005, 3:57 AM
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

What Ed said. Ditto


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Apr 16, 2005, 3:30 PM
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Re: [bodypilot1] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

Disclaimer: I am not an aff instructor, but I am a coach and an uncurrent tandem instructor.

If you have a very light floaty person, who, if they want to falt fly with groups, why not have them wear weights? They are going to have to get used to the idea eventually. Why not introduce it earlier?


Punky_Monkey

Apr 16, 2005, 4:42 PM
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Re: [jdfreefly] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's exactly my point....In order to fly with anyone at my home DZ I will be wearing weights all the time...


pilotdave  (D License)

Apr 16, 2005, 5:38 PM
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

I started wearing weights on AFF 3. Eventually I was just put with lighter instructors which helped a lot. But as soon as I got my A license and started doing RW, weights were definitely necessary. If you need em, you need em. Only your instructors, who've seen your body position, can really judge that.

Dave


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Apr 16, 2005, 9:11 PM
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Re: [pilotdave] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

I learned at a time when guys just didn't wear weights. I was a lot lighter than the people around me so I just learned to fall fast enough. To this day I have bad habits from that time. When you are constantly flying at the bottom of your range you sacrifice the ability to move effectively in other vectors. I do not think weights should be substituted for level control skills, but if people with thousands of jumps feel that their performance is enhanced by wearing weights rather than just arching harder, maybe that's true for you (punkey) too.


BPO  (D 87411)

Apr 17, 2005, 11:42 PM
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

should you start to wear some weights, you might want to re-consider jumping a 120ft2 canopy..


Punky_Monkey

Apr 18, 2005, 4:09 AM
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Re: [BPO] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just so you know I do have that canopy but do not plan on jumping that anytime in the near feature...I have a lot, tons of downsizing to do and also will take a canopy course before I even attempt to jump that.


BPO  (D 87411)

Apr 18, 2005, 4:18 AM
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

Very wise!

Just thought I'd ask.. Tongue


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 18, 2005, 8:06 AM
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hanging weights on junior jumpers is a bad idea when your DZ is near water.
Every DZ seems to have sewage settling pond within range.


Ron

Apr 18, 2005, 9:23 AM
Post #13 of 42 (1983 views)
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no problem putting weights on a person who needs them. You are very light, and will end up using weights on most RW jumps.

I have been an Instructor since like 1994 and a RW coach for a long time.

I don't recomend the weights that go inside a Jump Suit for ANYONE. But I have put Weights on a light butt, after I *first* put a big JS on myself.

You used weights in the tunnel, and on your 23rd jump with no problems.

If it was your first jump *ever* then I might not recomend them, but at your level (And I know something about your level of skill)...I'd wear them.

She weighs about 105 pounds for those that don't know her.

In reply to:
The problem lies in that since I have started jumping my coaches and instructors have always been about 5 feet below me.

I can think of one instructor that was not 5 feet below youWink


(This post was edited by Ron on Apr 18, 2005, 11:16 AM)


jdfreefly  (D 24037)

Apr 18, 2005, 2:23 PM
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Re: [Ron] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

hu, hu, hu....he said below you!!!


Punky_Monkey

Apr 18, 2005, 2:33 PM
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Re: [Ron] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

True Ron, you weren't below me.Smile It was great seeing an instructor in the air.

My instructors are still refusing to let me use weights. And I am very upset with them now for many other reasons.

I have checked with other DZ in the area and will not jump there. The two major reasons are...

1. I would have to go back to a one handle system and since I got transitioned to the two handle system while in Florida I don't feel this would be the correct thing to do. It could get to confusing if the time came when I had to use my EP procedures. I don't want to be switching back and forth.

2. The DZ I did find with a two handle system has only 288ft canopies for student gear. I can't flare a 235, and I back up and hang on a 215. That 288 I feel would be an accident waiting to happen.

So now I see another vacation coming on...Back to Florida or up to New York?


Punky_Monkey

Apr 18, 2005, 2:40 PM
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Re: [BPO] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

No problem, we newbies need people watching out for us.Smile

In z-hills I jumped a 200 Navigator. Let me tell you that thing had zip...When I got to my home DZ they put me on a 170 sabre. Largest around that I could use because our student gear is a one handle system. And I had transitioned down there. On that 170 believe me I was scared. Still am scared of it. Luckly I know how to plf and even plf when I can stand up landings. Bad habit or good? It took me a long time to learn not to flare from 30ft above the ground.

Wish I still had that 200 Navigator around.


(This post was edited by Punky_Monkey on Apr 18, 2005, 3:12 PM)


Ron

Apr 18, 2005, 3:16 PM
Post #17 of 42 (1924 views)
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
True Ron, you weren't below me. It was great seeing an instructor in the air.

I was taking offense there for a second. Could I have been THAT forgetable?

In reply to:
My instructors are still refusing to let me use weights. And I am very upset with them now for many other reasons.

They are only doing what they think is best for you....I find it funny they will not let you use weights when they are low on you.

In reply to:
1. I would have to go back to a one handle system and since I got transitioned to the two handle system while in Florida I don't feel this would be the correct thing to do. It could get to confusing if the time came when I had to use my EP procedures. I don't want to be switching back and forth.

2. The DZ I did find with a two handle system has only 288ft canopies for student gear. I can't flare a 235, and I back up and hang on a 215. That 288 I feel would be an accident waiting to happen.

The most important thing to do is get the damn license and then do what you think is best.

In reply to:
So now I see another vacation coming on...Back to Florida or up to New York?

You still have a jump ticket for ZhillsWink


Punky_Monkey

Apr 18, 2005, 3:38 PM
Post #18 of 42 (1919 views)
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Re: [Ron] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

You not THAT forgetable.Tongue
You are great to work with...Both in the air and in the tunnel. Wish I would have bit the big one the 2nd day and jumped more. Lesson learned.

They won't let me wear the weights...Have to learn to fly my body 1st. That only pisses me off. I know I am not the greatest but I did spend 30 minutes in the tunnel..That's more than what I have in freefall. And I have already worn weights .

Actually I still have 2 jump tickets for z-hills.


Ron

Apr 19, 2005, 5:31 AM
Post #19 of 42 (1885 views)
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
They won't let me wear the weights...Have to learn to fly my body 1st. That only pisses me off. I know I am not the greatest but I did spend 30 minutes in the tunnel..That's more than what I have in freefall. And I have already worn weights .

I thought about this the other day some.

Anyone here SCUBA dive? At one time I was solid enough, that I didn't need to wear a weightbelt to SCUBA dive. So you CAN dive without one. But why is it OK to wear one to SCUBA dive to help a physics problem, but not OK to have a Skydiving student wear weights to help the same type of Physics problem?

I am not saying that an Instructor should not try to adapt to the student first...That means not being lazy and making the student wear weights so you can jump your favorite suit. But if you have already put them into a good suit, and you have your biggest on...Why not add weight to make it even safer?

Especially if that student will have to wear weights once off student status anyway. Why make them arch so much that it is the only thing they can focus on? No one performs well at the extremes of their ranges.

Now, I still say that an Instructor that makes a student wear weights so they can be lazy is a bad thing.

But if you really have a light butt student...I don't see the problem.


Punky_Monkey

Apr 19, 2005, 6:03 AM
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Re: [Ron] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks RonWink

My jumpsuit as you know is brand new...Custom made for me...the instructor here has on a baggy suit and it still doesn't help. He is still below me.

I do focus a lot on the arching when I jump. Kinda goes like this...shit, instructor way below again...Arch, Arch, pop that arch out.

Shit, I am suppose to be working on, whatever it is at the time...Damn, almost time to pull..


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Apr 20, 2005, 12:53 PM
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Re: [Ron] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anyone here SCUBA dive? At one time I was solid enough, that I didn't need to wear a weightbelt to SCUBA dive. So you CAN dive without one. But why is it OK to wear one to SCUBA dive to help a physics problem, but not OK to have a Skydiving student wear weights to help the same type of Physics problem?

It's not the same problem. Divers use weight to achieve neutral bouyancy in the water, counteracting the wetsuit. On my side of the country it is virtually impossible to descend without it, and a lot of it. While in Florida you can get away with underweighting, it requires more energy and increases risk of embolism or decompression issues. Having the belt also gives a last ditch option of dropping it, which nearly guarantees that your body will surface to where help is more readily available. Lead increases safety underwater.

You don't need weight to skydive, and it increases the landing risk. Certainly sounds like a KISS violation for the first jumps. Seems like booties- initially jump without them, then transition over since the person will be using them soon enough.

I've been on the other side of the problem - trying to slow down my fall rate and arching very little. I need a running buddy!


jlmiracle  (D License)

Apr 20, 2005, 1:23 PM
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

How much weight are we talking here? I have no problem putting weight on a student as a last resort, but only 4-8 lbs but I won't put them on them on their very first jump either though.

If there is not an instructor at your DZ that can hang with you then you are down to 2 options, IMO.

1. Try to find a different dz that has an instructor that can go as slow as you; or

2. Put some weights on. I'm not talking 15-20 lbs, but with a 4-8 lbs placed correctly can help out alot. You will never learn to fly if you are bent in half or if no coach or instructor can hang with you.

I was told immediatly after completing my AFF that if I was going to jump with them (the ones that really really helped me alot) I was going to have to wear weights. Eventually you may be able to lighten up on the weights or get rid of them all together.

Best of luck to you!Smile

Judy


Ron

Apr 20, 2005, 1:30 PM
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Re: [kelpdiver] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

OK lets look at this:

In reply to:
It's not the same problem

Never said it was the SAME problem...I said they are both physics problems. Problems where you have to add something to make a situation safer and easier.

In reply to:
Divers use weight to achieve neutral bouyancy in the water, counteracting the wetsuit

Skydivers use weight to achieve a relative fallrate in a good body position.

In reply to:
On my side of the country it is virtually impossible to descend without it, and a lot of it. While in Florida you can get away with underweighting, it requires more energy and increases risk of embolism or decompression issues.

Diving a spring in FL. I was not underweighting. In fact the first time I did it I just forgot my belt and didn't notice till I came back up and saw it there by my Jeep.

As for skydiving:
A hard arch requires more effort and increases the risk of creating vertical seperation that is the most dangerous type of situation in skydiving except being low. It can be done without weight, but it requires more effort than normal, and performance and the learning curve is hindered.

In reply to:
Having the belt also gives a last ditch option of dropping it, which nearly guarantees that your body will surface to where help is more readily available

A student that is falling fast enough to be below an Instructor means that an Instructor can get to the student if they need help (down is easy for an experienced jumper)...A Student ABOVE an Instructor is MUCH harder to get to and the most dangerous student scenario beside being low. A student high puts the student into a position to try and fall faster to reach the instructor...I'd rather have an Instructor swooping to a student, than a student trying to swoop an Instructor.

In reply to:
You don't need weight to skydive

And you don't NEED weight to SCUBA dive all the time....But it sure helps in both cases.

In reply to:
and it increases the landing risk.

6 pounds would add 0.027 to the wingload on a 220 sqft canopy....Not much of anything.

A 100 pound girl with no lead on a 220 0.568 WL
A 100 pound girl with 6 pounds would be 0.595 WL. Well below any danger area.

In reply to:
Certainly sounds like a KISS violation for the first jumps.

Sounds like it, But its not. One of the most dangerous situations I can think of is a student spinning above an Instructor.

In reply to:
Seems like booties- initially jump without them, then transition over since the person will be using them soon enough.

Booties are a performance enhancement. Lead for a light butt in this case is saftey....Better performance is a side effect. Totaly different.

In reply to:
I've been on the other side of the problem - trying to slow down my fall rate and arching very little.

So you have never worn weights?

Then how do you know how hard it is to fly with them?...Or more importantly how hard it is to fly WITHOUT them?

I started skydiving at 5'6" and 130 pounds (I did Martial Arts WAY to much). I was told that guys didn't wear lead, so I spent a good part of my first 100 jumps trying to fall fast enough. I learned several bad habits in that time, and my progression was made much more difficult by having to fight a fall rate difference.

I have over a hundred hours of tunnel time now. I was coaching a "brick" during a camp. The first session I didn't wear lead and it killed me. The next session I put on 10 pounds and it was easy.

You expect a light weight to struggle to match fall rates while wanting them to do a bunch of objectives?

Would it be easier to teach a SCUBA diver if he was correctly weighted, or under-weighted?


(This post was edited by Ron on Apr 20, 2005, 1:32 PM)


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Apr 20, 2005, 4:56 PM
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Re: [Ron] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You expect a light weight to struggle to match fall rates while wanting them to do a bunch of objectives?

Would it be easier to teach a SCUBA diver if he was correctly weighted, or under-weighted?

I expect nothing. As I said, if they're going to need them, transition over. But not immediately. Weight increases dangers. I leave it to you instructors to determine the timeframe. For Punky - that may be now, or the Coach doing the RW requirements for the A license should take steps to slow down. Option 3 (figure it out yourself) doesn't seem very fair to her.

BTW, your words were "the same type of physics problem." It's not. Neutral bouyancy is a fundamental need for scuba divers, the equilivent of stable freefall for a jumper. If they can't obtain it, they'll be bouncing all over the place. It is very dangerous to teach an underweighted student - the response typically is to grossly overweight them to make things easier for the class. Dive instructors in both sports can be lazy.

It's not surprising you didn't need your belt for a fresh water dive. That's about a 6lb shift if all else remains the same.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Apr 20, 2005, 5:35 PM
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Re: [Ron] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
6 pounds would add 0.027 to the wingload on a 220 sqft canopy....Not much of anything.

A 100 pound girl with no lead on a 220 0.568 WL
A 100 pound girl with 6 pounds would be 0.595 WL. Well below any danger area.

So this is a very different physics question. Is adding 6lbs merely the equilivent of changing the wingloading slightly? I've tried following some of the conversations in the swooping about those adding 30 or 40lbs to compete and I don't really know.

Adding 6lbs to a 105lb person is adding 5% (well, ignore the rig for now) to their momentum and kinetic energy. If they try to run out a landing and trip, is that lead very bad, mildly so,...?

But stepping back, my only point was that the weight belt in scuba is not optional equipment, outside of rare circumstances. You don't have the option of diving solo or doing freeflying to avoid wearing it. That's why there's no reluctance to put a weight belt on a person in an OW class. So long as there is a shallow bottom, the more lead, the 'safer' the student is, and the easier to watch over.


Punky_Monkey

Apr 20, 2005, 5:50 PM
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Re: [kelpdiver] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok guys....debate nicely over this.Tongue

I am almost liscensed. I just have my tracking to pass and docking to do. I jumped with the lightest instructor we have this past weekend. Got tired of doing what I called the "dolphin" when I tried tracking so we decided to try to at least get some of my docks done.

Guess what...He had a big, baggy suit on. I had my custom ordered jumpsuit on. I had to fight like hell to catch up to him. When I did it was time to lock on and pull. He said he was as big as he could get. Basically I am screwed here. They still refuse to let me wear the lead. But yet tell me that once I am off student status I will need to wear it to jump with them. No win situation...Crazy

The way I see it I will be on student status here forever. So I am just going to focus on the "Door Monster" that reaccured and worry about finishing up when I get to another DZ in a month.

As far as me trying to run out a landing...very rarely happens. I PLF even when I can stand them up. Sometimes the PLF even happens a couple of seconds after I land.


(This post was edited by Punky_Monkey on Apr 20, 2005, 5:56 PM)


pilotdave  (D License)

Apr 20, 2005, 8:52 PM
Post #27 of 42 (831 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to always wear 6lbs for RW. Never could feel any difference under canopy (on a 150 or 135), but it made a HUGE difference in freefall. I suddenly started falling faster last season, so I ditched the weights. Twice I let experienced RW jumpers who hadn't jumped with me talk me into wearing weights because they were gonna keep a very fast fallrate. Went low both times and couldn't get back up (going low was a new experience for me). After the second time I started leaving my weights at home. Smile

Tried 12 lbs twice when I first got my weight vest. Went WAY low in freefall but still didn't notice anything different under canopy.

Dave


Ron

Apr 21, 2005, 6:03 AM
Post #28 of 42 (819 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I expect nothing. As I said, if they're going to need them, transition over. But not immediately

No offense, but since you have never needed weight I am not sure you truely understand the problems of being a light butt in this sport.

I have been there. The best example I can give to you that would relate is imagine trying to teach an underweighted student in the ocean...They have to spend energy and time just trying to stay down. A light butt student has to spend a large amount of energy just to fall relative. Also the time spent is wasted time.

Not a productive or efficient learning environment.

In reply to:
Weight increases dangers

6 pounds is not going to increase any level of danger. Plus it may solve one of the most dangerous situations I can think of...A Student needing help, but being above an Instructor.

In reply to:
For Punky - that may be now, or the Coach doing the RW requirements for the A license should take steps to slow down.

I'll tell you that I did a Jump with Punky. She is a very light weight girl. She had told me that all of her instructors have always been below her. She had a tight JS custom made, but even with her tight jump suit, me in my "fat boy" suit I still was not willing to risk losing her (BTW I am about 5'6" and 160#'s not). See this was a transition to throwout jump, and a recurrency jump....I HAD to be there for her deployment...Being below her was the most dangerous situation I could think of.

In reply to:
BTW, your words were "the same type of physics problem." It's not. Neutral bouyancy is a fundamental need for scuba divers, the equilivent of stable freefall for a jumper

The old "A" test had a question like this on it:
What is the most dangerous situation, Horizontal Seperation, or Vertical Seperation?

The answer is that Vertical seperation kills.

So while you may relate stablity to BC. The sport of skydiving is about being RELATIVE. And if the person is physicly at a disadvantage...You need PHYSICAL help. Just like adding weight on a SCUBA dive.

In reply to:
If they can't obtain it, they'll be bouncing all over the place.

If a person can't fall stable with another person...They create Vertical seperation and that is a big danger.

In reply to:
It is very dangerous to teach an underweighted student

It is very dangerous for a student to be above an instructor.

In reply to:
the response typically is to grossly overweight them to make things easier for the class.

You seemed to have missed my earlier post.

1. Make sure the student is in the correct Jump Suit.
2. Put the correct Jump Suit on the Instructor.
3. If that still seems not safe, find a different Instructor....In this case it would have been a guy at our DZ that can fly a WS with students....She wanted to jump with me.
4. Put weight on the student.

Putting weight on the student in EITHER sport just to be lazy is bad...The first steps should be to make it as easy for the Student and adapt to them....But if the case calls for it...Putting weight on them is much safer than below the student.

In the case of a 100 pound girl (Or guy, lets not be sexist) putting weight on them is safer than making them adopt a difficult body position.

The performance benefits is a side effect, but never forget we are there to TEACH the student. We are not teaching anything if the student spends all their energy and time to stay down.



In reply to:
It's not surprising you didn't need your belt for a fresh water dive. That's about a 6lb shift if all else remains the same.

Fresh water, steel backplate w/wing....Also, I was not fat thenWink


(This post was edited by Ron on Apr 21, 2005, 6:35 AM)


Ron

Apr 21, 2005, 6:32 AM
Post #29 of 42 (815 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So this is a very different physics question. Is adding 6lbs merely the equilivent of changing the wingloading slightly?

Yes, and no.

You bring up a good point about adding total weight to them as a part of their total mass. A 100 pound jumper with a 25 pound rig and 6 pounds means the jumper is carrying 31% of their total weight. This is not fun, and will make the student uncomfertable...So it should be avoided *if possible*.

However the danger of a student that could float above an Instructor is MUCH more important an issue to handle than discomfort.

We cannnot expect the student to match the Instructors fall rate...If Jumpsuits are not enough to ensure saftey...then it leaves two options....The Instructors should start on "weight watchers", or the Stundent will need lead.

In reply to:
Adding 6lbs to a 105lb person is adding 5% (well, ignore the rig for now) to their momentum and kinetic energy. If they try to run out a landing and trip, is that lead very bad, mildly so,...?

Well the difference is 0.027...Not much of anything. We expect the Student to perform fine when we add 25 pounds of rig...In this case adding 6 pounds of lead is not that great of an increase...As you said 5%-6%. And the benefit of added saftey is the key point.

Instructors should do everything possible to adapt to the student. But the most important thing is to build as much saftey as possible. In SCUBA you can over weight the student even though the added bulk of the inflated BC to compensate will cause more drag and increase air consumption. Also having all the extra weight wears physically on the student...And its not fun.

But it is safer.

In reply to:
But stepping back, my only point was that the weight belt in scuba is not optional equipment, outside of rare circumstances. You don't have the option of diving solo or doing freeflying to avoid wearing it.

On an AFF jump the skydiving student does not have the option of doing a solo or freeflying either.

In reply to:
So long as there is a shallow bottom, the more lead, the 'safer' the student is, and the easier to watch over.

The faster an AFF student falls the safer it is on a skydive as well.

But in both cases the ideal situation is to try and reduce the weight needed. In skydiving you try to adapt to the student first and foremost...However, skydiving is a sport that is very difficult for the extremes of the weight spectrum. A very light weight student and a very big boy will spend a lot more energy trying to be relative than a "Normal" person.


(This post was edited by Ron on Apr 21, 2005, 6:39 AM)


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Apr 21, 2005, 12:16 PM
Post #30 of 42 (796 views)
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok guys....debate nicely over this.Tongue

...

The way I see it I will be on student status here forever. So I am just going to focus on the "Door Monster" that reaccured and worry about finishing up when I get to another DZ in a month.

Don't worry- Ron and I occasionally have these discussions. Sometimes tries his patience a bit, but I end up with a much more detailed viewpoint of the matter at hand.

Seems odd that they won't let you use lead even with an A. I wondered if my dropzone was ever going to let me off AFF - seemed like they wanted me safe, but still paying often. Good luck with it at a new place, and put that door monster in its place.


Punky_Monkey

Apr 21, 2005, 12:26 PM
Post #31 of 42 (793 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks....The new place is only for a weekend next month. Should be able to finish up what I have left and then I can make the decision when I will wear the lead.

The "Door Monster" is getiing weaker, and weaker and weaker....


Ron

Apr 21, 2005, 1:24 PM
Post #32 of 42 (784 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't worry- Ron and I occasionally have these discussions. Sometimes tries his patience a bit, but I end up with a much more detailed viewpoint of the matter at hand.

And he corrects me when I screw something up..Tongue

In reply to:
Seems odd that they won't let you use lead even with an A

She does not have her "A" yet...Thats the problem. She can't fall with her Instructors, so she can't pass the objectives.

I see it often. A DZ will not let a student (Someone without a license) jump with lead. But then once they get the license they tell them to wear lead.

I talked with my mentor about this...He mentioned the same things you did about increasing their weight. He focused on how it would be uncomfertable. He also said that adding weight should never be a lazy "I's" way of dealing with the problem.

My stepped progression was created after talking with him about this issue.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 21, 2005, 2:24 PM
Post #33 of 42 (776 views)
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

>How do you feel of a student with 24 jumps wearing weights?

I would not require, or even ask, an AFF or SL student of mine to wear weights. Wearing weights increases the likelihood of injuring yourself when you're landing, and increases the odds of drowning if you land in water. I would also hesitate to use a standard weight vest or belt with lighter women, since it actually helps with stability - and it would not be good to graduate a jumper that could not get stable without weights.

That being said, I would have no problem putting weights on a coaching student if they were having serious fall rate problems _and_ they were beginning RW with other people. At that point, the risk of losing sight of one another due to fallrate changes (which adds to the risk of collision) outweighs the additional risk during landing, and at that point the jumper already has a few dozen landings

>The problem lies in that since I have started jumping my coaches
>and instructors have always been about 5 feet below me.

This really isn't acceptable in my book. Carey Peck, a 230+ lb guy, docked on one of the outer rings of the 300 way when it was falling at 104mph. He did it by using tricks that should be known to any competent instructor/coach - swoop cords, webbed gloves, sleeves and a loose suit made of draggy fabric. I can get down to 85mph in the tunnel with nothing more than my bigway suit, which corresponds to about 90-95mph with a rig on in freefall, and I'm a very average sized guy.

At the early stages of education, instructors must be able to stay with their students no matter what. Instructors who cannot do this are lacking critical freefall skills, in my opinion. You will sometimes see a student who goes flat and starts spinning suprise an AFF-I, and get above him. But for it to happen more than once is poor planning and poor flying on the part of the AFF-I. That's the problem I would fix.


Punky_Monkey

Apr 21, 2005, 2:43 PM
Post #34 of 42 (771 views)
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Re: [billvon] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for your input.

I am from a small DZ and learned by S/L (I hate that thing). Aff was not an option for me.

---------------------------------------------------------
That being said, I would have no problem putting weights on a coaching student if they were having serious fall rate problems _and_ they were beginning RW with other people. At that point, the risk of losing sight of one another due to fallrate changes (which adds to the risk of collision) outweighs the additional risk during landing, and at that point the jumper already has a few dozen landings
hat thing).
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I am on my coached jumps and that is where this is all coming from. None of my instructors HERE are able to fly with me. So I will never be able to get the docking portion done. Hence why once again I will be on a flight to a larger DZ where the tools and everything else is available for me. I don't want to fly with weights but if it is something I have to do for now or when flying with others...So be it...Anything to make this dream a reality.

-----------------------------------------------------------
At the early stages of education, instructors must be able to stay with their students no matter what. Instructors who cannot do this are lacking critical freefall skills, in my opinion. You will sometimes see a student who goes flat and starts spinning suprise an AFF-I, and get above him. But for it to happen more than once is poor planning and poor flying on the part of the AFF-I. That's the problem I would fix.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I agree that is why I am flying out to a bigger DZ again. More options. I want to learn correctly. Not just wing it and hope the instructor saw something when I jumped. If I am going to skydive I want to learn correctly and not develope all these bad habits from winging it.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Apr 21, 2005, 2:44 PM
Post #35 of 42 (771 views)
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Re: [Ron] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
She does not have her "A" yet...Thats the problem. She can't fall with her Instructors, so she can't pass the objectives.

I think she also said they told her that even off student status, they wouldn't let her use lead to jump with them. (post 26)


Punky_Monkey

Apr 21, 2005, 2:54 PM
Post #36 of 42 (769 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is what I said
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They still refuse to let me wear the lead. But yet tell me that once I am off student status I will need to wear it to jump with them.
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Which means no lead now...Lead as soon as I have my "A" if I want to jump with them...Nutso, Nutso....

I do realize I have to be able to fly my body and be stable without the lead. I think I do a good job at it. I hope at least. (Ron, you've jumped with me once. I am correct right?) Only problem I really ever had was a slow right handed turn. And that was only for a couple jumps on my delays and when I wasn't jumping much over winter. No it wasn't a spin. Samething happens to me when I am being stupid and just bring my left arm in to check alt. Habit trying to break.


Ron

Apr 21, 2005, 3:08 PM
Post #37 of 42 (766 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think she also said they told her that even off student status, they wouldn't let her use lead to jump with them. (post 26)

Quote:
They still refuse to let me wear the lead. But yet tell me that once I am off student status I will need to wear it to jump with them. No win situation...

Not how I read that....I read it as they will not let her wear lead till after she is off student status. But once off she will need to wear it.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Apr 21, 2005, 4:17 PM
Post #38 of 42 (757 views)
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

ok, that's even dumber than how I read it. That's like training people on ripcords or SOS and not transitioning them until after they're done.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 21, 2005, 8:01 PM
Post #39 of 42 (752 views)
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

>If I am going to skydive I want to learn correctly and not develope all these bad habits . . .

That's a reasonable plan. Many schools are starting people earlier and earlier on booties, the mantis position, HP canopies etc with the idea that they won't have to 'unlearn' anything later. As long as you keep in mind that the primary goal is to skydive safely and the secondary goal is to have 'good form' etc. there's nothing wrong with going that route.


Punky_Monkey

Apr 21, 2005, 9:51 PM
Post #40 of 42 (742 views)
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Re: [kelpdiver] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

ok, that's even dumber than how I read it. That's like training people on ripcords or SOS and not transitioning them until after they are done.
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I hate to tell you but at my DZ, my tiny home DZ they don't transition until after you have your "A". I got lucky on that one, when I went to a bigger DZ and transitioned.


Punky_Monkey

Apr 21, 2005, 9:56 PM
Post #41 of 42 (740 views)
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Re: [billvon] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I realize that the primary goal is to skydive safely and the secondary goal is to have 'good form' etc.

That's why I ask all sorts of questions when I don't understand something or agree with something. I am not afraid to ask any question. I have even asked before if you can sneeze in freefall.


DanglesOZQld  (F 623)

Apr 22, 2005, 1:53 AM
Post #42 of 42 (730 views)
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Re: [Punky_Monkey] student with weights? [In reply to] Can't Post

In my own opinion I believe that the instructor is the person who should be able to keep up with the student certainly on all AFF and A licence jumps. Change instructors if this is not possible with the one you are jumping with.

There are arguments with camera flyers blaming Tandem masters for slow fall rates or fast ones for that matter also, and the instructor is the camera flyer in this case!! If you have a student it is up to YOU the instructor to fall at their rate at least initially!

ONCE TRAINING IS FINISHED or you have made the student work on their slow or fast fall rate as required I believe that weight should be a consideration.

IE- "A" licence to fly your own body and the following licences the trainee should be doing most of the work in preparation to jump with other groups in fun mode.

Like I stated prior just my own two cents worth, or $0.00001 when converted to US Dollars ;) BSBD! -Mark.



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