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Tunnel Coach requirements

 

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rehmwa  (D 12816)

Feb 28, 2005, 7:12 AM
Post #26 of 49 (1712 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Gotta agree, someone needs to define the org better.

So far, it sounds like an insider's "club" or an ineffective version of a union. The descriptions are defining and restricting the coaches, not supporting the coaches in some way in return for setting standards.

Until there is a quid pro quo, a coach would be silly to join.

Ron - Without a better summary of the group's intent so far, what will happen is a group like this will lobby the tunnels for 'exclusive' coaching rights. Then the return on investment will be "permission" to coach. Perhaps they could negotiate a standard pay scale for coaches based on a definition of "certified" and a skill level that would imply.... That would be a payoff. Not having to qualify when traveling to other tunnels would be a payoff.

I see the PRO-rating in the same way for demos. Extra rules for something that wasn't broken at the national level - caused by local incidents.

edit: I'd hope this would apply to tunnel employees, not free lance coaches like Airspeed camps or Mojo Camps, etc.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Feb 28, 2005, 7:13 AM)


Ron

Feb 28, 2005, 7:42 AM
Post #27 of 49 (1709 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So far, it sounds like an insider's "club" or an ineffective version of a union

Exactly what I was trying to say, but you said it better....Maybe I should just PM you and you can do it rightWink

In reply to:
Perhaps they could negotiate a standard pay scale for coaches based on a definition of "certified" and a skill level that would imply.... That would be a payoff

Why would that be a payoff? I don't coach for the money, I have a full time job. I coach cause I like to teach. I also know that when I was coming up I could not have afforded to pay what I could charge...So I don't charge what I could.

Let free market decide. The folks at the tunnel know who is safe and who is not. And they do a great job of watching the coaches and I have seen them kick out a "Coach" that was not qualified.

In reply to:
Not having to qualify when traveling to other tunnels would be a payoff.

How big of an issue do you think that is? You think Chromy could not go to Perris and coach? Even without a "rating" he is known. I have no doubt I could spend 2 min in the tunnel and the rat (loving term) would realize I know how to coach flat flying.

In reply to:
I see the PRO-rating in the same way for demos. Extra rules for something that wasn't broken at the national level - caused by local incidents.

See, I liked to PRO rating. There was a situation that was posing a *danger* to the spectators. Also, it gave the sport a bad name when some guy kicked a baby out of its mothers arms. The USPA had to do something of the FAA was gonna.

I don't see a danger that this group will fix.

In reply to:
edit: I'd hope this would apply to tunnel employees, not free lance coaches like Airspeed camps or Mojo Camps, etc.

See I read it as anyone that wants to coach in the tunnel would have to be a member and pay dues....I fail to see why that is needed if all the group does is give you a permission slip...Also I bet that this group would not be a non-profit group like AOPA, USPA...ect.

I see this as a way for someone to try and make money off of others.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.


NeedToJump  (D 27247)

Feb 28, 2005, 9:36 AM
Post #28 of 49 (1699 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

I see this as more of a benefit for the people who work at the tunnel and freefliers, not so much for outside coaches.

If I visit a new tunnel where no one knows me and ask say that I have a student I am going to coach headdown I may have a problem whereas if I have a standardized card that says I know how to coach headdown then I probably would not have any hassles. Same thing if someone goes to another tunnel and wants to freefly.

The people who work at the tunnel will also have to worry less about getting a dangerous outside coach in there.

I'm curious to see how this develops.


Ron

Feb 28, 2005, 9:47 AM
Post #29 of 49 (1698 views)
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Re: [NeedToJump] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The people who work at the tunnel will also have to worry less about getting a dangerous outside coach in there.

I doubt that the good folks at the tunnel will take it any less serious than they do now no matter what "qualification card" you might have.

If you and I were to get the tunnel to do two ways they would still have a rat in there to watch us...And we are both experienced tunnel fliers. I don't see that changing any no matter what cards we flash at the counter.

I still don't see a benefit yet.


(This post was edited by Ron on Feb 28, 2005, 12:39 PM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Feb 28, 2005, 10:47 AM
Post #30 of 49 (1696 views)
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Re: [NeedToJump] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Some kind of signoff method would do the same thing. I don't see where a national organization would be needed or why individual tunnels couldn't establish their own criteria and live with the consequences of making it too easy or too hard.

Not everything in the world needs to be standardized.

Edit: I agree with Ron about the non-necessity of something like this. On the other hand, I don't necessarily think it's a scam. Just something with "good intentions" that will have the same effect as a scam or a power grab. Probably thought up by a democrat (wait, is the SC? No? then disregard that last bit)


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Feb 28, 2005, 10:50 AM)


NeedToJump  (D 27247)

Feb 28, 2005, 12:31 PM
Post #31 of 49 (1678 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I still don't see a benefit yet

Yeah, me neither. I had this explained to me a few weeks ago at the tunnel by one of the people working on it and it seemed to make sense then, but I'm not really seeing why it is necessary right now.

No matter who is in there, the tunnel instructor is always watching and ready and I wouldn't want that to change. I know that when things go bad in there it happens quickly and I like knowing that there's someone else there. Wink

I'm not quite sure what the purpose of this rating system is. I don't see an existing problem that it is aimed at fixed nor do I see anything to be gained by having it. Hmmm.....


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 28, 2005, 8:57 PM
Post #32 of 49 (1658 views)
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Re: [melushell] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
are u a tunnel rat ?

Yup. Proudly although I hear those in the Orlando facility don't really like "rat", but prefer "bunny"TongueLaugh

Quote:
if yes, can you please give us your story of becoming one?

Well, It's like this. May 9th 1975 I was born. Then.........


No really, I was working in the Perris Area, and part timing for the Perris School, when they asked me to work for the tunnel. Then I spent 3 weeks (10 hours a day, 6 days a week) flying an average of 4 to 5 hours a day, being beat up by two of the most sadistic training people I've ever met. (Hiya Joe and Carlos!Laugh)

Learned to save people from fates sure to be more embaressing than death. How to catch falling bodies while smiling the whole time. How to not trip over my own feet. How much vitamin "I" a person can take and still live.

Otherwise it's been a really fun time. I highly recomend people who want to get involved to make sure they LOVE to teach.


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 28, 2005, 9:03 PM
Post #33 of 49 (1657 views)
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Re: [skykittykat] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Exactly, but there is no tunnel rating out there, so hence my original question.

Sure there are. One of them is called "SkyVenture Tunnel Instructor".

The IBA is another step that will probably become more popular shortly.


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 28, 2005, 9:04 PM
Post #34 of 49 (1656 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
OK so no insurance, nothing that makes it WORTH joining.

Who says it's gonna cost anything?


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 28, 2005, 9:11 PM
Post #35 of 49 (1653 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you and I were to get the tunnel to do two ways they would still have a rat in there to watch us...And we are both experienced tunnel fliers. I don't see that changing any no matter what cards we flash at the counter.

I still don't see a benefit yet.

If you show up at the Perris Tunnel as a stranger, and say "I'm going to sit fly and do flips." I'm going to require you have some evidence of your ability to do so safely, or make you go through a progression again. Granted it won't take long if you're skilled but it's time you'd have to pay for.

If you have a proficiency record on file with the IBA you probably wouldn't have to mess with it.

The Instructor/Ccoach side of the IBA only applies to those in the position of ensuring the safety of the flyers (i.e. the "rat" or Tunnel Instructor)

As a side note, who better ti coach you in "tunnel flight" than someone who works in there for a living?TongueLaugh


Ron

Mar 1, 2005, 5:55 AM
Post #36 of 49 (1636 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Who says it's gonna cost anything?

No one has said it is not.


Ron

Mar 1, 2005, 5:57 AM
Post #37 of 49 (1635 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you show up at the Perris Tunnel as a stranger, and say "I'm going to sit fly and do flips." I'm going to require you have some evidence of your ability to do so safely, or make you go through a progression again. Granted it won't take long if you're skilled but it's time you'd have to pay for.

If you have a proficiency record on file with the IBA you probably wouldn't have to mess with it.

I would venture that no matter what card I flash, you as a tunnel rat will be watching everthing I do anyway.

In reply to:
As a side note, who better ti coach you in "tunnel flight" than someone who works in there for a living?

Well I'd rather have Joey teach me 4way than most tunnel rats.Wink


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 1, 2005, 7:17 AM
Post #38 of 49 (1627 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I would venture that no matter what card I flash, you as a tunnel rat will be watching everthing I do anyway.

True. But for my saftey and yours, without proof of ability before hand I would forbid you to do anything I did not *know* you were capable of handling safely. Showing me a progression could take 5-10 minutes of flight time and cost a little money. If you were to do something I had told you not to intentionaly, you session might just end there.

Having a flyer rating system makes a whole lot of sense.


Ron

Mar 1, 2005, 7:29 AM
Post #39 of 49 (1624 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
True. But for my saftey and yours, without proof of ability before hand I would forbid you to do anything I did not *know* you were capable of handling safely. Showing me a progression could take 5-10 minutes of flight time and cost a little money. If you were to do something I had told you not to intentionaly, you session might just end there.

You mean if I show you a card that says I can do flips and head down you are just going to let me go all out as soon as I get into your tunnel for the first time?

I really doubt that.

In reply to:
Having a flyer rating system makes a whole lot of sense.

Only if by flashing that card you let me start without any progression...And no offense I don't see that happening. And I could show you what I can do in the tunnel in less than two min. As could anyone else.

Is the card going to cost money?


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 1, 2005, 8:17 AM
Post #40 of 49 (1618 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well I'd rather have Joey teach me 4way than most tunnel rats.

So would I.Wink But I said "tunnel flying", not 4 way.
(Joey happens to be pretty good at that too)

Quote:
You mean if I show you a card that says I can do flips and head down you are just going to let me go all out as soon as I get into your tunnel for the first time?

Yes. That's the point. THE IBA is going to standardise tunnel flight (at least with SkyVenture tunnels from what I've heard.) Same as your skydiving licences. (BTW the card will be backed up by a database to prevent fraud).

Quote:
And I could show you what I can do in the tunnel in less than two min. As could anyone else.

Not if you're asking to do head down, and I've required a progression from you.


Ron

Mar 1, 2005, 8:28 AM
Post #41 of 49 (1615 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

You still have not answer what it will cost if anything.

See that makes the difference between a program, and a program designed to make someone money.


arlo  (D License)

Mar 1, 2005, 9:05 AM
Post #42 of 49 (1610 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

alright. i may be completely full of shit here, but i was thinking that the reason for the classifications was to standardize the way the instructors are taught.

i think i was told that you have to meet certain criteria in order to teach folk stuff. it's like a checklist. i'd even venture (no pun intended) to say its comparible to ISO 9000 requirements.

i think it's also a proactive approach to some regulation that might come down the pipe. i'm pretty sure that the intent wasn't to make any money off it (believe it or not), ut more to get the CYA stuff in order and standardized so that instuctors at tunnel 'A' can transfer to tunnel 'B' and still work there without requalification, so to speak. because of all the tunnels going up, there will be alot of folks wanting to move to where ever because they like it there better. this sort of helps allow that to happen.

of course, like i said earlier, i could be FOS (like this is anything new). Tongue

arlo

p.s. "don't kick the baby....." (classic, ron Laugh although i know this was based on a true story a few years back, i couldn't help the southpark/ike reference)


(This post was edited by arlo on Mar 1, 2005, 11:01 AM)


NeedToJump  (D 27247)

Mar 1, 2005, 10:27 AM
Post #43 of 49 (1601 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not if you're asking to do head down, and I've required a progression from you.

In two minutes I could easily show you a full progression from belly flying to head down as could most people who can fly head down in the tunnel. I can't see it taking more than 2 sessions (4 minutes) to demonstrate a progression for anyone who can fly head down in the tunnel.

The way I was explained this system was the same thing Arlo was saying. My understanding is that it is a system for SkyVenture employees to standardize what they can coach in the tunnel and what they can train other SkyVenture employees to be able to coach.

I agree with Ron as well that if I go to a new tunnel and just flash a card that says I can fly head down it should not change anything about the instructor in there. We still want everyone to be safe.

How is this system going to be applied? If you have to pay for tunnel time to demonstrate an ability to get a certain card, how is that any different than paying for tunnel time to demonstrate those same skills to the instructor in there?


Bodyflight.Net

Mar 1, 2005, 10:46 AM
Post #44 of 49 (1596 views)
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Re: [NeedToJump] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My understanding is that it is a system for SkyVenture employees to standardize what they can coach in the tunnel and what they can train other SkyVenture employees to be able to coach.

This is a normal, if not expected, approach to this situation. The situation being, having a variety of like facilities, all requiring the same training of their instructors. This would mostly be an answer for the insurance companies, who would not generally like the idea of strangers walking in off the street and teaching a class. This is why a "employee/instructor" is almost always around in a such a situation where an outside coach is with students. Liability is a b#$%h.

As an organization for SkyVenture instructors to train & cross train at other SkyVenture facilities, it seems like a great program. We do something very similar with our own circuit of open air tunnels & portables, in that once we have released you to instruct you can go to a variety of tunnels that accept our training program.

It doesn't work well as an INDUSTRY WIDE program since the training requirements are so different for the different tunnels. We could not allow a SkyVenture Certified at any level instructor just take students into an open air or propeller environment without training, and vice versa. Fortunatly, in most cases we cross train whenever possible to keep up. Diversity is key to our belief in a solid coach.


melushell  (D 28650)

Mar 2, 2005, 3:15 PM
Post #45 of 49 (1565 views)
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Re: [Bodyflight.Net] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks a lot for everybody who posted here

this post really cleared up a lot of Q's that I had


dgskydive  (C 25738)

Mar 4, 2005, 1:04 PM
Post #46 of 49 (1532 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a side note, who better ti coach you in "tunnel flight" than someone who works in there for a living?

That depends on what you are trying to do with the coached time doesn't it?

Would we use a tunnel rat or Chris Irwin to work on 4 way skills?


oldbastard  (D License)

Mar 6, 2005, 9:20 AM
Post #47 of 49 (1501 views)
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Re: [Ron] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

All these people complaining about the IBA and wonderin what it is all for... SkyVenture created the program so that instructors, coaches, and flyers can move about the numerous SkyVenture tunnels that are going to be opening world-wide... it does not regulate all tunnels... if you are flying in tunnels other than SkyVenture then you don't have to obtain an IBA... so I hear... the IBA is only for SKyVenture..

If anyone has concerns I know the folks at SkyVenture will be glad to answer your questions... I asked a couple of their instructors about the program and they assured me the program will be more beneficial for the customer... the customer can travel between tunnels and not have to prove their skills and they won't have to worry about hiring a coach who hasn't met SkyVenture's standards. All in all it will benefit the customer... if the coaches don't like it...maybe there is a reason other than what they are saying... maybe they can't meet the standards! Hah... I don't know... but I'm glad the IBA is coming... I'll be standing in line waiting for mine!


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 6, 2005, 9:47 PM
Post #48 of 49 (1482 views)
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Re: [dgskydive] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would we use a tunnel rat or Chris Irwin to work on 4 way skills?

Like I said, "Tunnel flying", not 4 way.Smile


Ron

Mar 7, 2005, 4:36 AM
Post #49 of 49 (1469 views)
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Re: [oldbastard] Tunnel Coach requirements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if the coaches don't like it...maybe there is a reason other than what they are saying...maybe they can't meet the standards!

I have asked questions and so far NO ONE has answered the "How much is it gonna cost?" question. Or the "Is this a not for profit, or for profit organization?"

As for me not being qualified to coach.....Well if thats what you want to think as the motivation...Feel free.

This thread http://www.dropzone.com/...post=1314150#1314150

Makes me think thats not the case.

But feel free to think what you likeWink


(This post was edited by Ron on Mar 7, 2005, 4:39 AM)


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