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Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris

 

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Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 1, 2004, 7:58 AM
Post #176 of 239 (1124 views)
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Re: [kallend] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

>You can't make people think.

That's why I put it in quotes.* It will certainly not make everyone think, but in my experience some people (not all) do benefit from time away from the sport to consider their risk/benefit tradeoffs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

* - note that quotes are not there for emphasis, they are used to indicate someone else is speaking, and is not necessarily speaking in the voice of the author. For example, if an author writes:

He "became altitude aware" at 700 feet when his cypres fired and he realized he was low

he is probably saying that he felt that the jumper was not altitude aware at all, but the jumper thought he was. I know you understand this; I've just seen other people misunderstand it.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 1, 2004, 9:59 AM
Post #177 of 239 (1105 views)
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Re: [Ron] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Not sure that's such a fair question to ask.

It is as fair a question to ask as Johns question was.

How do we know grounding will work?

How do we know it will not?

.

Following your philosophy:

"Have a problem with acne - here, swallow this. We haven't tested it but we're sure it works and you haven't proved it doesn't."

"Well, we haven't tested the fuel for contamination but we think it will run OK once you're off the ground, and no-one has proved that it won't."

"That wing repair looks strong enough, and you haven't proved that it will break."

"Well, no-one has proved that removing your testicles won't cure your headaches".


(This post was edited by kallend on Nov 1, 2004, 10:02 AM)


ladyskydiver

Nov 1, 2004, 10:47 AM
Post #178 of 239 (1087 views)
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Re: [kallend] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

umm...Kallend...

Quote:
"Have a problem with acne - here, swallow this. We haven't tested it but we're sure it works and you haven't proved it doesn't."

Isn't that what human studies of pills do?


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 1, 2004, 10:54 AM
Post #179 of 239 (1087 views)
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Re: [kallend] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

John, once again you have proved you are very good at tearing something down. Now do you have a better solution to dealing with this problem?

On thing we do know for sure, if grounded, they will not have a cypres fire for that period of time.

And instead of of all this crap about "time to think of what happened" and "re-training" how about calling it punishment for unacceptable actions. I know this is a new concept to some people but it has been used and proven to work in the past.

jmo

Sparky


(This post was edited by mjosparky on Nov 1, 2004, 10:55 AM)


ChasingBlueSky  (D License)

Nov 1, 2004, 11:01 AM
Post #180 of 239 (1083 views)
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Re: [ladyskydiver] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
umm...Kallend...

Quote:
"Have a problem with acne - here, swallow this. We haven't tested it but we're sure it works and you haven't proved it doesn't."

Isn't that what human studies of pills do?

But that doesn't happen until we kill a bunch of bunnies and rats first. There is a set process to drug testing, but we don't have the abliitly to teach lessons by tossing rabbits out of planes with AADs to prove a point! Laugh


Ron

Nov 1, 2004, 11:14 AM
Post #181 of 239 (1083 views)
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Re: [kallend] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Following your philosophy:

"Have a problem with acne - here, swallow this. We haven't tested it but we're sure it works and you haven't proved it doesn't."

"Well, we haven't tested the fuel for contamination but we think it will run OK once you're off the ground, and no-one has proved that it won't."

"That wing repair looks strong enough, and you haven't proved that it will break."

"Well, no-one has proved that removing your testicles won't cure your headaches".

Following your logic:

You have a problem with acne....Uh, we can't do anything about it because we don't know what will work. So, its best to do nothing...sorry about the crater face bit.

We just tested the fuel for contamination...But to be safe, we sent some to the lab for a few tests....The results should be back next mth if all goes well. You can jump then. Best to be safe and wait.

We can't fix that wing since a wing has never been fixed with that EXACT same damage before...We don't know what will work so we just better scrap it.

Well we think removing that cancer might work...But since we are not sure, it's best to do nothing.

You have to look at the cost of NOT doing anything....Something you can't seem to do. You would rather do nothing.

"In the absense of facts.....Don't do anything" -Kallend

If we all followed that rule...We still would not have fire.


ladyskydiver

Nov 1, 2004, 11:34 AM
Post #182 of 239 (1078 views)
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Re: [ChasingBlueSky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
umm...Kallend...

Quote:
"Have a problem with acne - here, swallow this. We haven't tested it but we're sure it works and you haven't proved it doesn't."

Isn't that what human studies of pills do?

But that doesn't happen until we kill a bunch of bunnies and rats first. There is a set process to drug testing, but we don't have the abliitly to teach lessons by tossing rabbits out of planes with AADs to prove a point! Laugh

Hey, Bo. Well...you could toss rabbits out of the plane to prove a point. But there are, also, products that have "no animal testing" as one of their supposed benefits so technically there could be products out that their first "testing" was undergone through human consumption.


ChasingBlueSky  (D License)

Nov 1, 2004, 11:45 AM
Post #183 of 239 (1071 views)
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Re: [ladyskydiver] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey, Bo. Well...you could toss rabbits out of the plane to prove a point. But there are, also, products that have "no animal testing" as one of their supposed benefits so technically there could be products out that their first "testing" was undergone through human consumption.

Since I have a friend that kills bunnies for a living in one of those drug companies, I can tell you I've had this discussion before. There are other ways to test some products to predict the desire outcome without animal testing. However, there is always a risk that both processes will not return the desired result.


ladyskydiver

Nov 1, 2004, 12:14 PM
Post #184 of 239 (1065 views)
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Re: [ChasingBlueSky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are other ways to test some products to predict the desire outcome without animal testing. However, there is always a risk that both processes will not return the desired result.

And right back full circle to the grounding for a Cypress fire rule at Perris. No guarantees it will work. No guarantees it won't work, but at least, they are trying to do something about the lack of altitude awareness.


ChasingBlueSky  (D License)

Nov 1, 2004, 12:23 PM
Post #185 of 239 (1061 views)
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Re: [ladyskydiver] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
There are other ways to test some products to predict the desire outcome without animal testing. However, there is always a risk that both processes will not return the desired result.

And right back full circle to the grounding for a Cypress fire rule at Perris. No guarantees it will work. No guarantees it won't work, but at least, they are trying to do something about the lack of altitude awareness.

Right. I said it at the start of this thread - I applaude the pro-active nature of this rule. At least they are doing something.

However, I am still not sure it is the right path. Some may see it as a lesson, others may see it as a disclipinary action. Skydivers don't care too much to be told what to do, let alone in the sky. I'm worried about the negative reaction such a rule can have.

Do I have the answer to the problem? Nope, if I did, I would have sent someone at Perris an email a long time ago. I'm just playing advocate here because I can really see this rule ending up causing more harm than good. But I really hope I am wrong.

I'm curious how well things have gone since this rule went into effect? There has been a lot of jumping, any AAD fires? Or any news at all?


firstime  (B 28972)

Nov 1, 2004, 2:22 PM
Post #186 of 239 (1042 views)
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Re: [winsor] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There may be competition between DZs on one level, but there tends to be cooperation on an operational basis. Even if two DZs are competing fiercely for business, my experience is that the word of the S&TA at one is taken seriously by the other. If a call comes in regarding a questionable jumper, information provided that they are an incident waiting to happen is taken seriously.


Well said.. and hope it will always remain that way


flyangel2

Nov 1, 2004, 4:55 PM
Post #187 of 239 (1026 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And instead of of all this crap about "time to think of what happened" and "re-training" how about calling it punishment for unacceptable actions. I know this is a new concept to some people but it has been used and proven to work in the past.

Right on Sparky! People need to be punished for their actions.

Bottom line, if you don't like the rules at a DZ, then don't jump there. I am prove of that. I don't like some of the politics at a nearby DZ, and I haven't jumped there in over a year. Yet I managed to log over 200 skydives this year starting at Easter.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 2, 2004, 6:41 AM
Post #188 of 239 (973 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
John, once again you have proved you are very good at tearing something down. Now do you have a better solution to dealing with this problem?

On thing we do know for sure, if grounded, they will not have a cypres fire for that period of time.

And instead of of all this crap about "time to think of what happened" and "re-training" how about calling it punishment for unacceptable actions. I know this is a new concept to some people but it has been used and proven to work in the past.

jmo

Sparky

If you just want punishment, then it's fine. If you want to alter someone's behavior, then you should make some effort to ensure that it will do what you want it to.

I can think of better exercises for improving altitude awareness than a grounding. I'm sure you can too.


wmw999  (D 6296)

Nov 2, 2004, 6:42 AM
Post #189 of 239 (971 views)
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Re: [flyangel2] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice avatar there, Mary Smile

Wendy W.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 2, 2004, 6:42 AM
Post #190 of 239 (970 views)
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Re: [ladyskydiver] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
There are other ways to test some products to predict the desire outcome without animal testing. However, there is always a risk that both processes will not return the desired result.

And right back full circle to the grounding for a Cypress fire rule at Perris. No guarantees it will work. No guarantees it won't work, but at least, they are trying to do something about the lack of altitude awareness.

Explain how 30 days on the ground improves altitude awareness. By this reasoning a whuffo should have better altitude awareness than any skydiver.


ladyskydiver

Nov 2, 2004, 6:51 AM
Post #191 of 239 (964 views)
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Re: [kallend] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
There are other ways to test some products to predict the desire outcome without animal testing. However, there is always a risk that both processes will not return the desired result.

And right back full circle to the grounding for a Cypress fire rule at Perris. No guarantees it will work. No guarantees it won't work, but at least, they are trying to do something about the lack of altitude awareness.

Explain how 30 days on the ground improves altitude awareness. By this reasoning a whuffo should have better altitude awareness than any skydiver.

hmm...I remember my whuffo days and my first jump. I checked my altitude so many times, it was funny - every other second almost. The ground coming up at me very rapidly was a very obvious thing, and I knew that pulling was priority. I still check my alti frequently and have now gained a bit of eye/ground matches approx. alti recognition.

However....

Explain how some one who is jumping out of a plane 2 1/2 miles off the ground plummeting to earth at an average speed of 120 mph can lose altitude awareness. Holy cow, Kallend. The earth is not a forgiving thing and if someone can not pay enough attention to the fact that if they do not do something (i.e. PULL) they WILL DIE, a grounding is the least thing that should happen. I don't care one iota about how many points I'm turning or if I wait just a split second to get that additional point - pulling is something that is a priority for me and should be for everyone out there jumping who isn't on a suicide mission. It's not that hard - PULL, PULL ON TIME, PULL STABLE. What's the difficulty in that? Unless injured and unable to pull or unconscious, there is no excuse for lack of altitude awareness - and this from a baby in the sport.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 2, 2004, 6:55 AM
Post #192 of 239 (963 views)
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Re: [Ron] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Following your philosophy:

"Have a problem with acne - here, swallow this. We haven't tested it but we're sure it works and you haven't proved it doesn't."

"Well, we haven't tested the fuel for contamination but we think it will run OK once you're off the ground, and no-one has proved that it won't."

"That wing repair looks strong enough, and you haven't proved that it will break."

"Well, no-one has proved that removing your testicles won't cure your headaches".

Following your logic:

You have a problem with acne....Uh, we can't do anything about it because we don't know what will work. So, its best to do nothing...sorry about the crater face bit.

We just tested the fuel for contamination...But to be safe, we sent some to the lab for a few tests....The results should be back next mth if all goes well. You can jump then. Best to be safe and wait.

We can't fix that wing since a wing has never been fixed with that EXACT same damage before...We don't know what will work so we just better scrap it.

Well we think removing that cancer might work...But since we are not sure, it's best to do nothing.

You have to look at the cost of NOT doing anything....Something you can't seem to do. You would rather do nothing.

"In the absense of facts.....Don't do anything" -Kallend

If we all followed that rule...We still would not have fire.

Ron, where did I suggest doing nothing?

I suggested additional training rather than a grounding.

We KNOW training works. That's why we have schools, colleges, universities, flying instructors and skydiving instructors. That's why the best 4-way teams train a lot (hadn't you noticed?).

Your solution to problems always seems to be to impose additional restrictions. Mine is additional education. I guess we just have different philosophies of life.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 2, 2004, 6:58 AM
Post #193 of 239 (960 views)
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Re: [ladyskydiver] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
There are other ways to test some products to predict the desire outcome without animal testing. However, there is always a risk that both processes will not return the desired result.

And right back full circle to the grounding for a Cypress fire rule at Perris. No guarantees it will work. No guarantees it won't work, but at least, they are trying to do something about the lack of altitude awareness.

Explain how 30 days on the ground improves altitude awareness. By this reasoning a whuffo should have better altitude awareness than any skydiver.

hmm...I remember my whuffo days and my first jump. I checked my altitude so many times, it was funny - every other second almost. The ground coming up at me very rapidly was a very obvious thing, and I knew that pulling was priority. I still check my alti frequently and have now gained a bit of eye/ground matches approx. alti recognition.

However....

Explain how some one who is jumping out of a plane 2 1/2 miles off the ground plummeting to earth at an average speed of 120 mph can lose altitude awareness. Holy cow, Kallend. The earth is not a forgiving thing and if someone can not pay enough attention to the fact that if they do not do something (i.e. PULL) they WILL DIE, a grounding is the least thing that should happen. I don't care one iota about how many points I'm turning or if I wait just a split second to get that additional point - pulling is something that is a priority for me and should be for everyone out there jumping who isn't on a suicide mission. It's not that hard - PULL, PULL ON TIME, PULL STABLE. What's the difficulty in that? Unless injured and unable to pull or unconscious, there is no excuse for lack of altitude awareness - and this from a baby in the sport.

Nice essay. Now explain how sitting on the ground improves altitude awareness better than jumping with an instructor.


ladyskydiver

Nov 2, 2004, 7:06 AM
Post #194 of 239 (948 views)
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Re: [kallend] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice redirect, Kallend.

Jumpers want to jump. Individual A gets grounded and is unable to jump. They know that if they want to jump they must maintain altitude awareness. Their punishment served (30 day grounding), they go back up. How much do you want to bet they pay a lot closer attention to their altitude this time around? They know if they don't pay attention, they get grounded (or worse). If you want to reteach them on the ground (although how additional training is going to teach someone that the ground is coming up quickly, pull or else is beyond me), add that into the 30 day grounding.

Now...explain to me how someone can forget that the ground is coming up at them?


Ron

Nov 2, 2004, 7:10 AM
Post #195 of 239 (946 views)
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Re: [kallend] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ron, where did I suggest doing nothing?

You have several times said that we should not do anything till we have more information about the problem. I call it information paralysis ...You can't make a choice till you have the perfect solution...And when a perfect solution does not exist, you just wait till one does.

In reply to:
I suggested additional training rather than a grounding.

How about grounding them AND making them retrain? Grounding for punishment since they did something stupid...And then training to make them more aware.

You don't just give out "A's" do you? I mean you do fail students if they don't do things right don't you?

In reply to:
We KNOW training works

No, we know people who want to learn and seek knowledge works...Just having training does nothing...Or have you not noticed that?

In reply to:
Now explain how sitting on the ground improves altitude awareness better than jumping with an instructor.

Explain how jumping with an instructor is going to teach you you need to pull before impact?

I mean, if you don't understand that, take up bowling.

In reply to:
Your solution to problems always seems to be to impose additional restrictions. Mine is additional education. I guess we just have different philosophies of life.

Restrictions that force people to learn...You just want to ask nicely that they learn.

Like it or not...Punishments work.

What kind of retraining do you sugest? I mean not pulling is akin to flying your plane into a mountain.


(This post was edited by Ron on Nov 2, 2004, 7:13 AM)


flyangel2

Nov 2, 2004, 7:15 AM
Post #196 of 239 (941 views)
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Re: [kallend] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you just want punishment, then it's fine. If you want to alter someone's behavior, then you should make some effort to ensure that it will do what you want it to.

As a parent I have found that punishment alter's behavior.

Again, if someone doesn't like the policy of a DZ, go some where else. No one is putting a gun to your head and telling you where you have to spend your money.

Wendy, I thought you'd like my new avatar. At this point I have so many pictures of friends that I could change my avatar everyday and you'd see some one new.


pilotdave  (D License)

Nov 2, 2004, 7:16 AM
Post #197 of 239 (938 views)
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Re: [kallend] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

The grounding might not help with altitude awareness, but the threat of a grounding might. The DZ has chosen to raise awareness about the seriousness of a cypres fire. Maybe they observed that newer jumpers don't have the same feelings about cypres fires that the older skydivers have always had, so they decided to start doing something about it. They have taken the stance that they don't take cypres fires lightly. Have one, you're grounded. You're not just going to get a quick repack and hop back on the plane. You will know that what you did was extremely serious and you are not welcome in the air over that DZ for a while.

Now you are absolutely right. This does not mean it won't happen again. Retraining is the next step. But the threat of grounding sets a tone on the DZ that cypres fires are unnaceptable. It's a start.

Dave


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 2, 2004, 8:18 AM
Post #198 of 239 (926 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The grounding might not help with altitude awareness, but the threat of a grounding might. The DZ has chosen to raise awareness about the seriousness of a cypres fire. Maybe they observed that newer jumpers don't have the same feelings about cypres fires that the older skydivers have always had, so they decided to start doing something about it. They have taken the stance that they don't take cypres fires lightly. Have one, you're grounded. You're not just going to get a quick repack and hop back on the plane. You will know that what you did was extremely serious and you are not welcome in the air over that DZ for a while.

Now you are absolutely right. This does not mean it won't happen again. Retraining is the next step. But the threat of grounding sets a tone on the DZ that cypres fires are unnaceptable. It's a start.

Dave

Is there a next step in the new Perris rule?


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 2, 2004, 8:25 AM
Post #199 of 239 (921 views)
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Re: [flyangel2] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you just want punishment, then it's fine. If you want to alter someone's behavior, then you should make some effort to ensure that it will do what you want it to.

As a parent I have found that punishment alter's behavior.

Again, if someone doesn't like the policy of a DZ, go some where else. No one is putting a gun to your head and telling you where you have to spend your money.

Wendy, I thought you'd like my new avatar. At this point I have so many pictures of friends that I could change my avatar everyday and you'd see some one new.

The US criminal justice system has found that over 67% of first-time offenders punished with jail terms end up back in jail after release. It has also found that the recidivism rate is significantly reduced by mentoring and rehabilitation.


kallend  (D 23151)

Nov 2, 2004, 8:35 AM
Post #200 of 239 (919 views)
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Re: [ladyskydiver] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nice redirect, Kallend.

Jumpers want to jump. Individual A gets grounded and is unable to jump. They know that if they want to jump they must maintain altitude awareness. Their punishment served (30 day grounding), they go back up. How much do you want to bet they pay a lot closer attention to their altitude this time around? They know if they don't pay attention, they get grounded (or worse).

I expect they'll pay more attention on the next jump anyway, since they had a scare plus paying for a repack and a new cutter. How many people have you heard of that had consecutive CYPRES fires with or without a punishment?

In reply to:
If you want to reteach them on the ground (although how additional training is going to teach someone that the ground is coming up quickly, pull or else is beyond me), add that into the 30 day grounding.

Where did I say reteach them on the ground? I suggest several jumps with an instructor doing altitude awareness exercises.
Since that will cost them, it is also a "punishment" for those into the penal thing.


In reply to:



Now...explain to me how someone can forget that the ground is coming up at them?

Beats me. I haven't.


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