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Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris

 

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Ron

Oct 18, 2004, 10:54 AM
Post #126 of 239 (1474 views)
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Re: [billvon] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Then why so many more fires?

1. Almost everyone has a cypres now
2. Many people have very snively canopies
3. Many people (headdowners) do not ever look at the ground in freefall.

All that and you skip the fact that some peoples attitudes are just accepting of AAD fires.

So according to your list of issues the only fixes are:
1. Don't jump a CYPRES
2. Don't jump slow opening canopies.
3. Don't do freefly.

Where if you take the line of thinking I have you can do all three AS LONG AS YOU USE YOUR HEAD.


ChasingBlueSky  (D License)

Oct 18, 2004, 11:07 AM
Post #127 of 239 (1466 views)
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Re: [Ron] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
However, to determine the *attitude* of those jumpers. all you have to do is watch and listen.

I have and do. I don't think it is as dire as you portray it. There are a few dense jumpers that I know of that believe they are bullet proof. But overall, the jumpers that I know and hang with are a very safe group of people and are not complacent at all. We make jokes, but what we do in the air is no where near those jokes.

This tendency to feel that a younger generation is more out of control is very typical. You hear parents say it all the time about their kids. You hear Baby Boomers saying it about Gen X, etc. This is a cycle that has happened time and time again. You are looking back through your own mistakes at the current generation of jumpers and claiming that they are complacent. But your own actions that you claimed on this board (pulling low, hooking it in, etc) were probably getting the same claims from the generation of jumpers before you. Your perspective has changed, but the situation is still the same.

Yes, jumpers are still going to die at a rate of about 30 a year as the stats show. As Bill Booth says, jumpers find new ways to kill themselves every year. This generation it is low hooks. Who knows what it will be next.


(This post was edited by ChasingBlueSky on Oct 18, 2004, 11:12 AM)


Praetorian  (B 27234)

Oct 18, 2004, 11:17 AM
Post #128 of 239 (1451 views)
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Re: [Ron] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

all, most ... where do you jump? what is the training program like? I know NO students or "younger" jumpers who think a cypres fire is no big deal, I know some OLDER jumpers who think little of it but NO NEW jumpers. I've personally witnessed freeflyers giving a fellow free flyer a talking too for pulling "low" in this case pulling around 2500ft (probably below) all of these were younger guys(and a gal) all with around 1000 jumps. If someone talked like a cypres fire was no big deal then offered to jump with me .. I'd refuse. once again I CHOOSE to jump with a Cypres, I look at it like a helmet, yes people played hockey and football and rode motorcycles before helmets and most of them lived uninjured, but you would have to be pretty dumb to think that someone who chooses to wear a helmet is a lesser player or less skilled rider because they choose a helmet. sorry for the rant

On a darker note ... in the old days someone who was "not cut out for this sport" failed to pull or pulled way too low once..... today with a cypres that same person will get the Chance to make another stupid mistake insted of just a crater and a black mark on the sport


happythoughts  (D License)

Oct 18, 2004, 11:26 AM
Post #129 of 239 (1438 views)
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Re: [billvon] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
However, claiming that anyone who has had a cypres fire would otherwise be dead is silly.

It is a rare event in life that can be described with a totally black-and-white "100% of the time" rule.
While not every single cypress fire would result in death, most would.

People who have a cypress fire are not 10 seconds away from death. Maybe 1 or 2. If they haven't been altitude aware for the last 12,000 ft, they probably aren't going to be in the next 200 (1 second).

If your main takes 400 ft to open, and you are going 175 ft/sec, then your hard deck is around 600 ft to pitch your pc. Below 600 and you are probably dead. At 700, maybe some broken parts.

Most people on this thread are for/against the grounding rule. After re-reading your postings, I see that you are for the right of the dz to do what they want. I haven't seen a hard for/against personal opinion from you yet.

What do you think should be done if a person has a cypres fire for no other reason than a lack of altitude awareness?


cuppa_tea007

Oct 18, 2004, 11:29 AM
Post #130 of 239 (1436 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

I have ploughed through this post and have at last read a reply that cuts to the chaste, PUNISHMENT, stuff the self reflection, and all the other physiological BS and get it into your heads that this is a PUNISHMENT. I am sick and tired of society condemning punishment; it is a penalty for breaking the rules, end of discussion. Live with it, if after the 30 days people want to go off and do the same thing, increase the punishment. If my kid steps out of line he gets punished, it is his choice if he sulks and refuses to learn, but there is no discussion about the punishment being fair. My house, my rules.
My hat is off to Perris.


Ron

Oct 18, 2004, 11:32 AM
Post #131 of 239 (1431 views)
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Re: [ChasingBlueSky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have and do. I don't think it is as dire as you portray it

Well maybe because you are in the group I speak about? I do have 7 years more in the sport than you. That gives me the knowledge of what skydivers acted like prior to the CYPRES being popular.

Low pulls were more common, but they were also more *intentional* low pulls. Now for the sake of safety, they were pretty stupid back then as they are today. However, I would rather have a guy pulling low on purpose than losing track of altitude and pulling low on accident. The guy that is humming it KNOWS he is low.

Having been around before the CYPRES was popular, and right after the "It's a death trap" phase. (The thought of an AAD firing on a "normal" low pull was seen as dangerous). Anyone that had an unintentional low pull due to losing track of altitude was yelled at quite a lot by his fellow jumpers. Today it seems nothing by comparison.

In reply to:
This tendency to feel that a younger generation is more out of control is very typical.

It is also very acurate. 40 years ago "Water Closet" was not allowed on TV (First case of a censored word on National TV...Happend on the Tonight Show, pre Carson). Today you can say all kinds of words that then you could not say.

EDIT to add: it was Jack Paar February 11, 1960, when Paar walked off the stage in protest over NBC's censorship of one of his jokes from the night before.

Look at Music. Yesturday I heard a rapper rap that one of the women he was sleeping with was having his baby. Another rapper speaking as his mind said he was going to punch her in the stomach and abort the baby.....That is a far cry from seperate beds on the Dick Van Dike show.

In reply to:
But your own actions that you claimed on this board (pulling low, hooking it in, etc) were probably getting the same claims from the generation of jumpers before you.

And they were right. I did dumb things, and for the most part they kept me in line. I never thought they were being jerks. I knew they were looking out for my best interests...Even if I didn't like the lesson or the approach to the lesson. They were right, and I was wrong...It took years to realize that fully.

In reply to:
Your perspective has changed, but the situation is still the same.

My perspective has changed...And the situation is still the same. New jumpers are not taking the sport as serious as they need to. And their perspective will change once they almost get killed, see someone get killed, or lose enough friends.

In reply to:
As Bill Booth says, jumpers find new ways to kill themself every year.

Yep, as equipment gets better people start taking advantage of the fact that it will work. I bet that I don't drill my emergency procedures as much as a guy that use to jump shot and a half capewells. My main has only mal'ed 6 times in almost 3400 jumps...I remember being told about equipment that mal'ed about once every 100 jumps.

As AAD's save more people...People will rely on them more. Same game, different device. More people have audibles than before...More people depend on them than before. And yet even with visuals and audibles we STILL have people lose track of altitude....


(This post was edited by Ron on Oct 18, 2004, 11:40 AM)


Ron

Oct 18, 2004, 11:46 AM
Post #132 of 239 (1417 views)
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Re: [Praetorian] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
all, most ... where do you jump?

I have been to over 60 DZ's in the US. How many have you been to? It could be that your DZ is better than others...Or it could be that you just don't know all about your DZ.

In reply to:
what is the training program like?

Its not the TRAINING....it is the attitude that comes later after they are no longer under supervision.

In reply to:
I know NO students or "younger" jumpers who think a cypres fire is no big deal,

Brian has said that he knows a jumper that keeps a spare cutter in his car. Maybe you just don't know enough people yet? I know a girl that I KNOW has had two fires...She treats it like no big deal...I have been told she has had three.


ChasingBlueSky  (D License)

Oct 18, 2004, 12:32 PM
Post #133 of 239 (1388 views)
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Re: [Ron] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well maybe because you are in the group I speak about? I do have 7 years more in the sport than you. That gives me the knowledge of what skydivers acted like prior to the CYPRES being popular.

That's pretty funny - because I am known to be such a reckless jumper. I lead by example when I am the dz. I've been called the safety bitch and mother hen by more than a few jumpers. But the best part? The conservative advice I have been handing out? I now hear those new jumpers passing on the same safe advice and now leading by example as well. The culture of the jumpers I know is not complacent.

I've been around long enough to remember when the Stiletto was a death machine in the pre-Velocity days and how you could only jump an EXT if you had thousands of jumps. I understand how quick perspectives change in this sport. However, you can preach safety only so much. Sometimes you have to let the kid touch the hot stove and get burned. You got burned and made your mistakes - sometimes you need to let others do it as well. Preach too much and they just don't listen.

And I do listen to the lessons of those that have been in the sport a long time. I have hours of conversations with people like Roger Nelson, Kirk Smith, Sky and Rainbo who have seen just about every aspect of this sport and can put it into perspective and really boil it down to what matters.

In reply to:
However, I would rather have a guy pulling low on purpose than losing track of altitude and pulling low on accident. The guy that is humming it KNOWS he is low.
Which means what? The ground still won't budge. I saw the lowest pull of my short time in this sport at Rantoul - a three way round low pull contest that broke around 1k and they all made sure they turned off their AAD before the jump. I counted a four second canopy ride from one of them - his Nepture showing 400 feet for a deployment. (ask some of the Hellfish about it - he was hanging around that tent a lot) So, something like this is ok to do, but if you have a Cypres fire, it isn't? Crazy

In reply to:
Today it seems nothing by comparison.
Again, I see otherwise. I even watched a guy bitch out his wife in front of the entire DZ after she had a Cyrpes fire. I've seen very few Cypres fires at home - it isn't until I travel that I see them elsewhere, and usually at boogies.

In reply to:
And they were right. I did dumb things, and for the most part they kept me in line.
But you still went out and did dumb things anyhow - despite what they said to you.

In reply to:
New jumpers are not taking the sport as serious as they need to.
And rock n roll is the devils work!!! Once again, I don't see it as dire as you do. Yes, I have traveled - 27 dzs in five years and countless boogies.

In reply to:
And their perspective will change once they almost get killed, see someone get killed, or lose enough friends.
I understand that as I have been down that road as well. But I did have full respect of this sport before those deaths. Team Funnel was created to help promote safety long before we lost our first friend...I know this because I helped create that group with seven other guys that felt the same way about the sport as I did.


Ron

Oct 18, 2004, 1:09 PM
Post #134 of 239 (1366 views)
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Re: [ChasingBlueSky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's pretty funny - because I am known to be such a reckless jumper

Did I call you reckless? Nope. I asked if you were in the group I spoke about...The group in this case is the group that does not see a CYPRES fire as a big deal. You may have READ something else that was not there.

In reply to:
I've been called the safety bitch and mother hen by more than a few jumpers

Good for you.

In reply to:
The culture of the jumpers I know is not complacent.

Maybe you don't know the other cultures, or other times...It's hard for me to understand life before everyone had a car...But for my Dad it's much easier, and for my Grandfather its simple. Maybe you can't fathom life, and the way of thinking back then, pre-safe AAD?

Its not saying you are unsafe...just that you don't know.

In reply to:
I've been around long enough to remember when the Stiletto was a death machine

Did physics change? Did the Stiletto suddenly become safer than it was 10 years ago? EDUCATION may have gotten better...But we have known since day one that hitting the ground was bad....That has NEVER changed. You see the ATTITUDE to the Stiletto changed...Not the Stiletto. Just as the attitude to a CYPRES fire has changed. And using your example a new skydiver does not know the danger that a Stiletto was/is since it seems so much less high performance than a Velocity.

In reply to:
you have to let the kid touch the hot stove and get burned.

And sometimes people die. You would rather they die...I'd rather they listen. Eiter way I can't just do nothing and wait for the next person to get burned/burn in.

In reply to:
Roger Nelson, Kirk Smith, Sky and Rainbo who have seen just about every aspect of this sport and can put it into perspective and really boil it down to what matters.

And what do *they* think about CYPRES fires?
Seems to me that BC thinks there is a problem, and he is one guy I really trust.

In reply to:
So, something like this is ok to do, but if you have a Cypres fire, it isn't?

Never said it was OK..But at least they KNEW they were going low. A person who loses track of altitude has no clue they are close.

I also bet they were yelled at or grounded. As they should have been....

You can only tie going for the low pull contest record.Wink

In reply to:
Again, I see otherwise

Again only from your frame of referance. And your frame of referance is post AAD, and from Chicago a very progressive DZ. Again I ask...What was Rogers view of a person who was saved by an AAD? What did he do?

In reply to:
In Reply To
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And they were right. I did dumb things, and for the most part they kept me in line.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But you still went out and did dumb things anyhow - despite what they said to you.

Actually I normally did the dumb thing BEFORE they yelled at me for doing it....AFTER they yelled at me I tended to stop doing the dumb thing that got me yelled at....In one case due to them threatening to kick my ass if I did it again. (Low pull at around 400 jumps...ya know back when I thought I knew everythingWink).

In reply to:
In Reply To
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New jumpers are not taking the sport as serious as they need to.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And rock n roll is the devils work!!! Once again, I don't see it as dire as you do. Yes, I have traveled - 27 dzs in five years and countless boogies.

I love how you petty much ignored the fact that people HAVE accepted things as normal that were not normal before. Both in the real world...I doubt saying "Water Closet" will get you censored today, and no one would jump a canopy that mals every 100 jumps.

In reply to:
Yes, I have traveled - 27 dzs in five years and countless boogies.

27 is less than 60+ and 5 years is less than 11. Plus you were not around when AAD's were considered death traps.

In reply to:
I understand that as I have been down that road as well. But I did have full respect of this sport before those deaths.

Good for you...Do you think EVERYONE has that same attitude as you did? I didn't. Difference was I thought an AAD would kill me, not save me.

Who knows more about the things an alcoholic will go through....A guy that was never an alcoholic, or the guy that was and recovered?

If you never were dangerous...Good for you and you do serve as a good example...Bravo!!!! But to think you "know" the other side of the coin is foolish at best.

In reply to:
Team Funnel was created to help promote safety long before we lost our first friend...I know this because I helped create that group with seven other guys that felt the same way about the sport as I did.

Again, Bravo!!!

Some learn the lesson later, others bounce before they learn the lesson.

And most people don't equate a CYPRES fire to an almost bounce anymore since they think the CYPRES will always be there. That attitude is new. And I think that attitude is bad.


(This post was edited by Ron on Oct 18, 2004, 1:44 PM)


jumpwally  (D License)

Oct 18, 2004, 1:34 PM
Post #135 of 239 (1353 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

I think grounding is the simplest and best treatment possible. Those who are opposed to it, get over it. Talk to an airline pilot, they can get grounded over paperwork issue's and there are some military pilots out there that can fill these pages with all kind of grounging stories, rather than say hey ! Good for Perris ! Instead hair splitting begins,,,geez. And how can anyone disagree with the statement "this sport is not for everyone",,that is the true -est statement ever !!! Not everyone should snowboard or snow ski,,do you really think we are going to perform great in an Indy car or Nascar? C'mon lets be realistic ! Diff talents for diff folks,,some things become a passion for some and for others its just to be in a group or to be cool or whatever they happen to believe at the moment. We sure enjoy stirring in the negative don't we? This is a dead horse and all the hair and meat have been beaten off of it ;-)
I don't post that often, cuz I don't feel I have enough jumps or experience to comment,,I prefer to look , listen and learn but those comments from the less than 100 jump folks,,,ggeeezzz aren't you embarassed? Survive a year or two before you debate.. as others have said " THINK " and look, listen and learn. wally


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Oct 18, 2004, 1:59 PM
Post #136 of 239 (1335 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you had a CYPRES fire because of inattention, you should likely take up another hobby.

I can think of a few peeps that have had cypres fires that i would still jump with. I consider them safe skydivers that just had one bad incident of losing altitude. We have Pablito, Lewmonst, DaGimp, Jimmie (he doesn't post). I would jump with them any day and don't think they need to take up another hobby.

Add me to that list... at the 2001 Mardi Gras boogie, first jump of the weekend, one of the co-captains for the TSR 150 way event was organizing a 10 way comprised of experienced jumpers. Average experience was well over 1000 jumps apiece. After dirt diving and boarding the plane, I asked the organizer what our break-off altitude is. He looked at me a little sheepishly and hand-signs 3.5K. My eyes widened for a second and I didn't say anything. I thought about getting off the group but didn't. Hindsight is always 20/20. Anyway, we start off great, doing a shit-hot sequential dive, then right around 4000 feet, the formation falls apart and everybody's tumbling and trying to get stable and get each others' bearings, and at the same time our audibles are going off and we're trying to get the hell out of dodge. I start tracking, but notice two others tracking in the same direction, below and off both sides of me. I made the decision to wait for them to pull and clear my airspace so as not to risk a canopy collision. Alas, the last one pulled slightly under 2K and I went screaming past him, then I dumped. My canopy snivels enough that any pull below 1700 feet puts me in Cypres firing range. Sure enough, I'd gotten in the saddle and just about grabbed my toggles when I felt the pop on my back. A quick look to confirm (PC was trailing, but the dbag hadn't come off my back yet), and I quickly chopped my main and had a clean reserve opening.

Since then, I've strived to make sure I pull by 2500 feet and if a dive has a questionable plan, I won't get on it. I was already pissed off at myself by the time I'd landed on that jump that extra punishment would have been redundant. That said, I believe punishment needs to be meted out on a case by case basis.

I know of one jumper in Texas who did an intentional cut-away without a tertiary reserve and without approval from the local S&TA. He got grounded for a week. He was okay with that after the S&TA talked with him nicely. But he made the mistake of announcing (bragging more like it) what he did on the forums here and everybody got on his case, and pissed him off so he quit jumping. No big loss here, as he had an attitude problem.

Blue Skies
Billy


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 18, 2004, 3:31 PM
Post #137 of 239 (1305 views)
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Re: [jumpwally] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

 I disagree...I think grounding is a waste of time in most cases. There are often other, better ways to get the point across.....

I can see why Perris has made the rule though, because a DZ can't afford to have unnecessary bad PR, and regardless of who is at fault when a bounce occurs, the DZ always pays a price....as do the people who live and work there.....If people are going to ignore basic survival rules in great numbers, then they have to get a bit ruthless...

And skydiving CAN be for everyone because there are enough different disciplines to cater for all sorts of jumpers...as long as people are properly trained then they can jump safely.....and why shouldn't everyone have the opportunity to enjoy what we know is great.....

I've spent a lot of time helping people experience the thrill of a lifetime.....and I enjoy seeing them buzz out big time..........

I thought the "elitist" bullshit went out of skydiving in the mid 70's......and I'll fight anyone who has the arrogance to say skydiving "is only for a few".

Total horseshit!!!...


MWGemini  (B License)

Oct 18, 2004, 3:53 PM
Post #138 of 239 (1297 views)
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Re: [Ron] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a reminder- I am a new skydiver (not even licensed yet) and I think cypres saves are as big a deal as you can get, regardless of the reason for it.

Mike


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 18, 2004, 5:36 PM
Post #139 of 239 (1273 views)
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Re: [happythoughts] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

>While not every single cypress fire would result in death, most would.

In my experience, 90-95% of cypres firings happen after the main parachute has been opened, and would not otherwise result in death. If anything, those cypres firings INCREASE the odds that you will die in those situations, since dual deployments can and have killed people. I've been on at least one jump where I was very glad I didn't have a cypres. However, on the whole, cypreses do more to help keep you alive than kill you, which is why I use one.

>People who have a cypress fire are not 10 seconds away from death.
> Maybe 1 or 2. If they haven't been altitude aware for the last
> 12,000 ft, they probably aren't going to be in the next 200 (1
> second).

Someone who opens their main at 1200 feet and has a cypres firing at 1100 feet is not "1-2 seconds from death." Cypreses are just mechanical devices that cannot sense main parachute opening, and thus are less qualified than, say, an S+TA to determine who nearly died and who didn't.

>Most people on this thread are for/against the grounding rule. After
> re-reading your postings, I see that you are for the right of the dz
> to do what they want. I haven't seen a hard for/against personal
> opinion from you yet.

I used to be an S+TA, and at the DZ I was S+TA at, I reserved the right to ground people who had cypres firings. If they did so because they were largely altitude unaware, they got grounded. That happened once. If they did so because they pulled at 1600 feet and had a long snivel, they just got a warning. That happened 3-4 times.

>What do you think should be done if a person has a cypres fire for
> no other reason than a lack of altitude awareness?

Again, depends on the circumstances. Like you said, it is a rare event that can be described as totally black and white.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Oct 18, 2004, 6:14 PM
Post #140 of 239 (1262 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
as long as people are properly trained then they can jump safely

I've known a few people who were properly trained who were NOT safe jumpers in the slightest. Not because they were hot dogs or full of themselves but because they just weren't cut out for this sport. According to your profile you've been in this sport for 30 years; can you really say you've never met ANYONE in that time who scared you in the air more than once?

In reply to:
I thought the "elitist" bullshit went out of skydiving in the mid 70's......and I'll fight anyone who has the arrogance to say skydiving "is only for a few".

If someone is not willing or able to take responsibility for their actions and decisions, then skydiving is not for them. If someone is too afraid or wound up to recognize and deal with an emergency themselves, then skydiving is not for them (or not for them at that time in their life anyway).

Skydiving is not for everyone. Saying that doesn't make me an elitist, it makes me a realist.

A tandem skydive, on the other hand, can very well be for everyone since in most cases the instructor handles any and all possible problems and the "student" is just along for the ride. Personally I don't consider those who made one tandem jump, didn't pull (ie let the instructor do it), and never touched the toggles to be "skydivers."

Please don't beat me up because I disagree with you.


mcrocker  (D License)

Oct 18, 2004, 6:34 PM
Post #141 of 239 (1258 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just curious, but does anyone think that having a mandatory grounding due to cypres fire will encourage people to stop using a cypres or not buy one for their rig at all? I would think that establishing a general rule for everyone without regard for individual circumstances would discourage the use of a cypres at a facility where an AAD is not a requirement.

If someone loses altitude awareness and they have a Cypress they are grounded for 30 days. If someone loses altitude awareness without a Cypress they are grounded FOREVER!.


nate_1979  (B 27889)

Oct 18, 2004, 8:31 PM
Post #142 of 239 (1230 views)
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Re: [mcrocker] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

I dunno, I'm a new jumper... My $.02 is that a cypress fire WOULD be a big deal, and if I ever had one I would not be upset to be grounded as I obviosly need to think some things over. (excluding I get knocked out in freefall or something) . I'm lucky enough to jump at a drop zone that REQUIRES a cypress, and I'm happy for that.. I just think they are a good idea. On the flip side, I will *ALWAYS* fly as though I dont have one, why would I trust my life to some little computer with a pyro device hooked up to it? There are ways to not loose altitude awareness, my personal solution is my audibles which simply BACK UP my visual altimiter and visual of the ground.. If I get so caught up in my jump that I dont notice my altitude I think my two audibles screaming at me at the same time @ 2K will definately get my attention if I missed the first alerts Unsure It costs a bit of money to get this stuff, but seriously it is your life your talking about.

Edited to remove "dumb" comment which has been taken in such a way I did not intend.


(This post was edited by nate_1979 on Oct 18, 2004, 9:23 PM)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Oct 18, 2004, 8:34 PM
Post #143 of 239 (1229 views)
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Re: [nate_1979] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd hate to think that I might be dumb enough to jump without one.

Watch who you're callin' dumb. Never know who might have survived hundreds or thousands of jumps without one. Maybe even one of your instructors. Shocked


nate_1979  (B 27889)

Oct 18, 2004, 8:37 PM
Post #144 of 239 (1227 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'd hate to think that I might be dumb enough to jump without one.

Watch who you're callin' dumb. Never know who might have survived hundreds or thousands of jumps without one. Maybe even one of your instructors. Shocked

Dont mean to step on any toes with that comment Crazy I just personally think that it's a very good idea to have one Unsure

Sorry if anyone takes that the wrong way, as I was commenting on MYSELF jumping without one, if you dont want it that's your choice !

Hell, I dont know what I'm trying to say lol..

INSERT FOOT IN MOUTH!


mattjw916  (D License)

Oct 18, 2004, 9:10 PM
Post #145 of 239 (1214 views)
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Re: [nate_1979] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

I know plenty of people that don't use an AAD, and I don't consider any of them "dumb". It is a personal choice as to whether to jump with one or not... a choice that everyone should make for themselves upon careful consideration.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 18, 2004, 9:27 PM
Post #146 of 239 (1208 views)
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Re: [billvon] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If they did so because they pulled at 1600 feet and had a long snivel, they just got a warning. That happened 3-4 times.

Bill,

There has been a rule against pulling at 1600 feet since I started jumping. When I was S&TA at Perris, opening at that altitude would in most cases be a grounding.

1600 feet is just about half of the altitude an "A" lic. is required to be open and 900 feet below that of a "B" lic. "C" and "D" lic. holders would only be 400 feet low, but they should know better.

I feel that anytime a cypres fires it is a big deal and if the jumper was not just seconds from death, he/she were closer then they could ever dream. At 1000 feet you have about 5 sec. to impact if you do nothing. But then take away 2 of those sec. because by then it is too late to do anything. jmo

Sparky


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 19, 2004, 4:15 AM
Post #147 of 239 (1176 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

 Most people who are not "cut out" for the sport quit of their own volition....thats their decision and I respect that.....

However, I've never ever told someone they should take up bowling, and never would....perhaps if there was a compelling medical reason I might...but even then I would try to accommodate them if possible...and I've trained people to do solo's who do have medical issues, but not enough to disqualify them in my mind.....(In NZ people do not have to get a medical clearance from a doctor to jump..we believe people are capable of making their own decisions, they are adults after all)....

Plenty of people have problems, and if they are still keen on the sport I will show them how to overcome their problems and how to enjoy skydiving safely....its all about patience, encouragement, and education....

I have seen plenty of people who would be written off as useless by most overcome their problems and become good skydivers.....to me they are a challenge....

If someone is not capable of handling an emergency it will be because they haven't been trained properly... and I will find that out before they get in the plane the first time.....and rectify that situation to make sure they are capable......

Someone on the board last week with 30 jumps was saying that they weren't sure that they had the strength to pull their reserve in an emergency....I found that totally unbelievable...

There are no bad students....only bad instructors....

As far as being scared of people in the air I make sure people are jumping within their capabilities, and don't put myself in a position where they can take me out.....

So yes, I can say that I've spent this long in the sport and I've never trained anyone who I've later had to ground for good.

I have confidence in my training methods, the equipment I provide, and the people I deal with.....too many people are afraid to trust themselves and others...I prefer to be positive...


chriswelker  (D 19678)

Oct 19, 2004, 5:32 AM
Post #148 of 239 (1158 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are:


1. Tandem jumps--4,500 feet AGL

2. All students and A-license holders--3,000 feet AGL

3. B-license holders--2,500 feet AGL

4. C- and D-license holders--2,000 feet AGL

Just enforce the USPA BSR's and suspend the USPA member for a period of 30-60 days.

Chris Welker
S&TA '05


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Oct 19, 2004, 7:23 AM
Post #149 of 239 (1125 views)
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Re: [chriswelker] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
4. C- and D-license holders--2,000 feet AGL

Note, folks, that's container opening.

Which means that a righteous snivel still puts you into Cypres territory. Which shouldn't mean that if you have a Cypres fire you won't get shit.

The C/D license container opening altitudes were set when canopies generally opened faster. A 1000' snivel was a malfunction in those days.

Wendy W.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 19, 2004, 8:32 AM
Post #150 of 239 (1094 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

 
To the management at Perris:
Way to go Perris. It's your sandbox, you make the rules. If somebody doesn't like it, they know where the door is.

Since you've got the biggest sandbox around, the others will follow your lead. This is a prime example of a DZ governing itself, and Perris Valley's status as a DZ should contribute to the adoption of such a rule at DZ's across the country. Bravo.


To all those opposed to the rule:
This isn't knidergarden, and it's not Disneyland. If you don't want to follow the rules put in place to save your life, and then you don't want to be responsible for your actions, fuck you. Go be an asshole somewhere else (preferably not a DZ).


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