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Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris

 

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diablopilot  (D License)

Oct 15, 2004, 10:11 PM
Post #76 of 239 (1254 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't think it's fair to make this statement.

It's totaly fair. This is not some low risk, strap on rollerblades kinda thing. If you don't understand that you are RISKING YOUR LIFE, each and every time you step out of the aircraft, you belong on the ground.

Quote:
but losing awareness happens.

No it doesn't. People let it happen through complacency.

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but it seems like a harsh rule.

Harsh? Harsh? You know it's jaw droping the caviler attitude that is previlent in this sport now. Let me explain what harsh is.

The ground is harsh at 120 mile per hour.

Nor a rule saying "you were less than 6 seconds from dying because you were dumb and not taking thing seriously, so we think you should take 4 weekends off and think about what your life means to you"

I'll bet you've never scraped someones body off the ground?

Quote:
accidental occurrence doesn't necessarily warrant the same punishment, does it?

An accident is being knocked unconcious. By your logic we should just slap drunk drivers on the wrist when they kill someone. I mean it was an accident right? They didn't mean to run that old lady down.

Quote:
Why aren't there mandatory suspensions for other accidents which can result in death? i.e. making a low turn..?

There are. Perris has grounded plenty of people for that. Some ground them selves unintentonaly.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Oct 15, 2004, 10:30 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Oct 15, 2004, 10:18 PM
Post #77 of 239 (1252 views)
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Both times I saw people have cypres fires the cypres had beat them by a split second.

Bull. If the cypres had them beat, they were DEAD.

That's how it's designed. It fires when through inaction you've reached the point you can't react fast enough to save your own ass. While you're still thinking, it's saving your butt.


tbrown  (D 6533)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:33 PM
Post #78 of 239 (1241 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Everyone is not cut out for this sport.

I don't think it's fair to make this statement.

This is not to flame you Dagny or to give you a bad time, but there's nothing fair about skydiving. When we leave the plane we have an alloted time for fun and then we have to end the skydive or die. It's heads or tails, we end the skydive or die. The Cypres is a great tool and a lifesaver, it has greatly reduced the number of deaths from no pull/low pull situations. I've got one and I use it. But it doesn't relieve me of my responsibility to pull by a 2000 ft minimum altitude.

Grounding jumpers for low pull offenses has been standard practice for decades. When I was a newbie I once pulled at about 2 grand and the DZO called me into the office for a little chat. He said that was too low for me, he wanted to see at least 2500 ft (acceptable by the book in those days) and that if I did it again he would ground me for 30 days. End of problem, I was wrong & I knew it. I cleaned up my act and everything was cool.

People cannot go low just because they have a Cypres. A wide awake jumper with no injuries who has a Cypres fire is a low pull by definition. Have you ever looked out the door or a window at 750 ft. ? It's HORRIFYINGLY low, the idea of dumping at that altitude gives me gooseflesh just thinking about it. It's not even a guarantee that your reserve will open, which is why they don't call them AOD's like they used to in the old days. They're called AAD's, because all they really do is activate your reserve pilot chute & after that, God only knows...

You really should scrape together the price of a Cypres, or whip out the US Plastic or whatever it takes & get one. They're not cheap but they're not a luxury either. Make sure you turn it on in the morning and then FORGET it's there and act accordingly. It really isn't that hard to do and it's what this unfair sport is all about. I want you to live a long time and enjoy this sport. And sometimes we need to crack down on people to keep it that way. Perris is doing the right thing.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 16, 2004, 12:01 AM
Post #79 of 239 (1236 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

I can not believe how people can argue with this rule. No one is taking away your right to vote or your ablility to breath.

If your AAD fires and you do not have a good reason, you just lived through the dumbest thing you will ever do. If you do not see the reality of that, buy a bowling ball. You sound like a bunch of spoiled kids.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 16, 2004, 5:01 AM
Post #80 of 239 (1229 views)
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Re: [diverdriver] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Disagree with this policy. You never improved anyone's performance by preventing them from practicing for 30 days.

And how do you know a typical type "A" personality skydiver will benefit from reflection? More likely they will just get pissed off and angry.

A far far better solution would be to make them do a refresher with an instructor.


Ron

Oct 16, 2004, 6:07 AM
Post #81 of 239 (1241 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know I'm a lowtimer and I'm not trying to flame the new rule, I'm just trying to understand how it can be efficacious by itself.

Give a person time to stop and think about the fact they about died in a sport due for a stupid mistake.

In reply to:
I really believe that it would be better if, as I stated before, it included a re-education aspect on safety and a coach jump before allowing the offender to resume jumping.

Do you really think I need to remind you that you need to pull before impact?

Anyone that does not understand that simple fact should not be jumping.

A coach jump is to teach RW skills...Not altitude awareness, that would require an AFF jump....And I think we can all agree an AFF jump might be a bit much in this case.

I have no problem with sending a person home for 30 days and give them time to think about the fact that they about checked out of this world. If fact, I think it would be a great idea for them to HAVE to tell their family about it, and spend those 30 days thinking about what a crater with their name on it would affect the ones they love.

In reply to:


Ron

Oct 16, 2004, 6:14 AM
Post #82 of 239 (1240 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is not some low risk, strap on rollerblades kinda thing.

Dude, have you BEEN on rollerblades? Thats some dangerous shit....Wink

Other than that, I agree.Laugh


Ron

Oct 16, 2004, 6:21 AM
Post #83 of 239 (1240 views)
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Re: [kallend] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Disagree with this policy. You never improved anyone's performance by preventing them from practicing for 30 days.

30 days to think about the fact you are dead except for Airtec INC. will do wonders to your mindset.

In reply to:
And how do you know a typical type "A" personality skydiver will benefit from reflection? More likely they will just get pissed off and angry.

It would work on me..and I am about as "A Type" as you ever want to meet.

In reply to:
A far far better solution would be to make them do a refresher with an instructor.

How would that help? A dive where they look at their altimeter? Thats an AFF jump. And most people will not just lose track of altitude on a regular jump...They will lose track of altitude due to trying "to get that carve", or "that last point"....30 days to think about how close you came to becoming part of the "crater tour" is nothing.

The scary thing? Some on here are saying "Thats why I have two audibles".....So trading dependence of one device for another....


Dagny  (B 28462)

Oct 16, 2004, 7:53 AM
Post #84 of 239 (1221 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I can not believe how people can argue with this rule. No one is taking away your right to vote or your ablility to breath. .... You sound like a bunch of spoiled kids.

I respect your right to disagree, but I ask that you also respect mine and not trivialize my opinion as the rantings of a spoiled child.

That being said, I'd like to say that the discussion concerning this issue has helped me to understand the need for policy to be in place.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 16, 2004, 7:59 AM
Post #85 of 239 (1219 views)
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Re: [livendive] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think this new rule at Perris is a good one and doubt it will discourage many (if any) from buying an AAD. More likely is that visiting jumpers who hear of and don't like the rule will simply not turn their AADs on.

Blues,
Dave
If they manage to live thru a situation where their Cypress would have fired, but wasn't turned on, won't they get grounded for opening that low, either main or reserve?


Dagny  (B 28462)

Oct 16, 2004, 8:12 AM
Post #86 of 239 (1218 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you don't understand that you are RISKING YOUR LIFE, each and every time you step out of the aircraft, you belong on the ground.

What I meant to say was that I feel the person who lost alti awareness is likely fully aware of this fact. It doesn't necessarily mean they were operating with a blatant disregard for the sanctity of their own life. My problem is that with a 30 day layoff, the skydiver may reflect on the gravity of the situation that keeps them from jumping, but a grounding by itself is not a guarantee that the person will both reflect on the incidenct and change their ways. Truly, nothing is a guarantee, but as you cannot control a person off the dz, why not have something in place on the dz (re-eduation, AFF level 6 jump before removing restrictions) that will allow the dz to assess the attitude of the offender.

You don't just send a kid to time out and then let them go about business as normal without first determining the efficacy of your punishment in ensuring that they have seen the error of their ways.

Quote:
I'll bet you've never scraped someones body off the ground?

Not a skydiver, but yes I have. I'm well aware of the effect of blunt trauma due to a high speed impact. And I am certainly not trying to be cavalier, I simply want to understand the policy and discuss the implications and potential for it. Skydiving is a sport that will continue to pass from the hands of the older, more experienced to the younger, less experienced and, I believe, it would be a mistake if the reasoning behind the rules and regulations wasn't passed on as well.


Dagny  (B 28462)

Oct 16, 2004, 8:14 AM
Post #87 of 239 (1216 views)
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Re: [tbrown] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

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This is not to flame you Dagny or to give you a bad time

No worries.

Quote:
I want you to live a long time and enjoy this sport.

Thank you. Smile So do I.


Dagny  (B 28462)

Oct 16, 2004, 8:32 AM
Post #88 of 239 (1208 views)
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Re: [Ron] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
30 days to think about the fact you are dead except for Airtec INC. will do wonders to your mindset.

It will do wonders as long as you are certain the person is repentant and introspective. As Kallend mentioned, they may just spend 30 days being angry and blaming anything but their own actions for being responsible. (I know I don't need to talk about how many people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, or inaction, as the case may be.)

Quote:
How would that help? A dive where they look at their altimeter? Thats an AFF jump. And most people will not just lose track of altitude on a regular jump...They will lose track of altitude due to trying "to get that carve", or "that last point".

Why wouldn't an AFF level 6 jump be an appropriate way to deal with the problem in addition to a grounding? I know it is redundant, as would be re-education of sky safety, but redundancy never killed anyone.

If I go greater than 2 months without a skydive, I pay for a refresher and an AFF jump before being allowed to solo again. I have done a refresher and I hated having to put the money out because I knew how to pull for myself and set up my own landing and what a mal looks like, but it was good to get the refresher so that both the DZ knew I was ready for the jump and so I knew I was ready. It was a good thing. Why wouldn't this be a good thing for anyone, even the most experienced skydivers? We are talking about complacency here.

The two problems I see with a 30 day grounding are these:

1. You cannot ensure that the suspension served its purpose, if its purpose is to ensure the fact that the skydiver was repentant, fully aware of the gravity of the situation, and preparing for the future to avoid the situation occurring again. You would need something else, maybe as simple as a lecture from the S&TA, maybe more.

2. Is it really enough? Is it enough to impact the skydiver and is it enough to remove liability from the DZ? I honestly don't know anything about liability and the dropzone. I can see that having a policy in place to reprimand the offending skydiver would be beneficial, but will it be enough to remove the liability should that skydiver return and then die from repeating their mistake?

Quote:
The scary thing? Some on here are saying "Thats why I have two audibles".....So trading dependence of one device for another....

While this is a topic for a different thread, I would just like to say that there is a difference between dependence and establishing a system of checks and balances. And, truly, in skydiving, we are all ultimately dependent on devices.


JustaBill  (B 29017)

Oct 16, 2004, 9:38 AM
Post #89 of 239 (1196 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been following along for awhile and there are some good points made on both sides. How about instead of re education, make the offending jumper go to the first jump course and talk to the students about his lose of altitude awareness and the consequences of losing altitude awareness. Talk to the students about how and why it happened etc etc. It's not exactly re education, but it is educating up and coming jumpers and making them be on the DZ when they can't jump, and really making them think about what they did wrong etc. Kind of like getting sentenced to community service for the first time offenders of a DUI, having to talk to high school kids about it. Just a suggestion.


(This post was edited by JustaBill on Oct 16, 2004, 9:42 AM)


KCJumper  (C 34189)

Oct 16, 2004, 10:30 AM
Post #90 of 239 (1185 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is that Skydive Kansas City?


Yeah it sure is.

Patrick


KCJumper  (C 34189)

Oct 16, 2004, 10:35 AM
Post #91 of 239 (1184 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think it's a shame. Sometimes shit happens. Thank god for the cypres. Making someone wait 30 days to jump again or handing them a bowling ball sucks. Oh well, just my opinion but i think a cypres fire once would ensure someone to not lose awareness again. Now if they have a second cypres fire, then something needs to be done.

So let me see if i understand. One cypress save and it's cool. But twice and you are done. What would it be like if we didn't have them. One time and you would be done. So giving the second chance is the second chance. You know you get to wake up the next morning. Smell the fresh air.
It is your opinion but i will say that if i ever have to truly depend on my cypress then i'm done. Just my thoughts.

Patrick


livendive  (D 21415)

Oct 16, 2004, 10:48 AM
Post #92 of 239 (1180 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think this new rule at Perris is a good one and doubt it will discourage many (if any) from buying an AAD. More likely is that visiting jumpers who hear of and don't like the rule will simply not turn their AADs on.

Blues,
Dave
If they manage to live thru a situation where their Cypress would have fired, but wasn't turned on, won't they get grounded for opening that low, either main or reserve?

At that point whether or not their CYPRES would have fired becomes a matter of debate. It's possible that Perris would ground them anyhow, if anyone saw them and had a good idea of how high they were when they opened. Rest assured they'll argue that they were higher than they actually were though, just as low-pullers have done for decades.

Blues,
Dave


obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 16, 2004, 12:55 PM
Post #93 of 239 (1165 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

 I've never believed that grounding is an effective deterrent.....it just delays or removes the offender for a while but doesn't really address or "cure" the problem behaviour......

My way of dealing with low dumpers is not to ground them, rather they must do 1, or maybe more, static line jumps.....at 3 grand for students, 2 grand for "A" licence and above.....they get to jump, see the ground from a lower altitude, slowly and safely......and come to the notice of every other jumper on the DZ.....

I tell you, students just love seeing someone with more jumps than them going out on SL.....and senior jumpers totally dread the thought of having to do so........but everyone agrees its a fairer and more effective solution than a grounding......

Even the jumpers who have had to do it say that they have learnt their lesson, and will usually later admit that doing a SL jump was actually quite fun.....a nostalgia trip, simple and easy and over with in 30 minutes or less......but the point is ingrained in their consciousness.....

If people want extra freefall, I tell them to get out another 1000 feet higher.....do it at the top....

I can tell you that the embarrassment factor ensures no repeat behaviour.....and the point about the dangers of low dumping and its consequences is well made to everyone....its certainly well discussed at beer o'clock in the bar......

The one ego tripper who refused to comply and who flounced off the DZ in a huff, effectively grounded himself from the DZ anyway.....and found that when he tried to jump at another DZ that word of his actions and reaction had preceeded his arrival there.....and he'd acquired an addition to his reputation....now he's regarded as a tosser, as well as a low dumper............shot himself in the foot big time....


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 16, 2004, 2:53 PM
Post #94 of 239 (1140 views)
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Re: [JustaBill] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've been following along for awhile and there are some good points made on both sides. How about instead of re education, make the offending jumper go to the first jump course and talk to the students about his lose of altitude awareness and the consequences of losing altitude awareness. Talk to the students about how and why it happened etc etc. It's not exactly re education, but it is educating up and coming jumpers and making them be on the DZ when they can't jump, and really making them think about what they did wrong etc. Kind of like getting sentenced to community service for the first time offenders of a DUI, having to talk to high school kids about it. Just a suggestion.

I think this is the best suggestion yet. Have the jumper write up a short outline of the talk thus forcing him to go over the incident.

And as far as a grounding for the purpose of reflection, bull shit. Think of it as punishment. Remember punishment? You do something bad, something bad happens to you.

Sparky


okalb  (D 22854)

Oct 16, 2004, 3:24 PM
Post #95 of 239 (1136 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

I absolutely agree with the grounding policy. If nothing else it will server as a deterrent to others and show that the DZ takes safety seriously. I do have a question though.

I know of a recent incident on an AFF jump where the student began to tumble out of control at pull time. The instructor (fairly experienced) chased the student and ended up pulling very low after dumping out the student. The instructor had a very slow opening canopy and had a cypres fire causing a 2 out situation. Now we all know that as an AFF instructor you are taught that at a certain point the student is on their own, but I can imagine that in that situation all you are thinking about is saving the students life.

Should the instructor be grounded for 30 days?


KCJumper  (C 34189)

Oct 16, 2004, 5:23 PM
Post #96 of 239 (1118 views)
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Re: [okalb] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

I have my coach rating right now and i know that isn't even close to what an AFF instructor does but, there are regulations for a reason. We all have our hard decks and the last thing an instructor is told to do is dump so the student knows to pull. NO MATTER WHAT. We are supposed to be our students last signal.

So in this case i could see some kind of talking to at least. Otherwise we are saying that there will always be circumstances where you can break the rules. Just my thoughts on this.

Patrick


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 16, 2004, 7:02 PM
Post #97 of 239 (1103 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

>That's how it's designed. It fires when through inaction you've
>reached the point you can't react fast enough to save your own ass.

I think people may overestimate the accuracy of the cypres. It will fire somewhere between 500 and 1200 feet depending on your position, how it's mounted, the relative accuracy of the sensor, ground altitude difference, daily pressure changes etc. It's based on a barometric sensor, just like the one in your dytter, protrack, digiture etc. I've seen a 400 foot difference in my digitude depending on where I hold it, and the problem of cypreses firing high when you stand up is well known.

A suprise cypres firing, where the jumper is caught unawares, is a very big deal. A cypres that fires three seconds after you open your main, or one that happens at about the same time as your reserve pull, is less of a big deal (though certainly still an issue.) It is indicative of a jumper who opened too low, not of a jumper who would certainly have otherwise died.


HeatherB  (B License)

Oct 16, 2004, 8:40 PM
Post #98 of 239 (1090 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Good call, Perris.

Personally, I think if you have two Cypres fires due to loss of altitude awareness, your USPA license (or other national license) should be revoked.

Zooming through a grand without a fucking clue should not be brushed off as a simple mistake.


diablopilot  (D License)

Oct 16, 2004, 9:21 PM
Post #99 of 239 (1083 views)
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Re: [billvon] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think people may overestimate the accuracy of the cypres. It will fire somewhere between 500 and 1200 feet depending on your position, how it's mounted, the relative accuracy of the sensor, ground altitude difference, daily pressure changes etc.

I agree that is may fire that high, but that's also somthing it says in the manual. If you choose to jump with one, you HAVE to accept it's limitations.

Low pulls are a groundable offence.

Sniveling through 1000-1200 feet is just as unsafe. That's a groundable offence.

Jumping with a device like an AAD and not being respectful of the limitations it imposes on you should be too.

I still thing that the rule at Perris is a good one, the only acceptable excuse for a cypres use should be a physical incapacity to activate either of your parachutes.

I know several people who have had cypres fires. Some from goofing off, some from being knocked out, and some from not being altitude aware. The fact they had a fire, doesn't make them bad jumpers, or canidates for another sport. The way they react to the position they put them selves in to cause the fire does.


tbrown  (D 6533)

Oct 17, 2004, 12:24 AM
Post #100 of 239 (1068 views)
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Re: [mjosparky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

According to the original post, the problem came to a head after "several" Cypres fires in the last month or so. As busy as Perris gets, and they just hosted the Nationals, several Cypres fires really are unacceptable.

Sparky, you probably remember back in 1980 at Perris there was a problem with too many people losing their pud handles on their hand deploys and pulling their reserves. Management got fed up with that one as well and announced the next reserve ride due to a lost handle would be grounded. And guess what, the problem dried up real quick (I know because I was one of 'em and I got my pilot chute setup reconfigured). So the threat of grounding does work to clear up situations that are simply getting out of control.

By the way, there was a legit9mate Cypres save at Perris a month or so back. A jumper doing a backloop accidently kicked another jumper around his neck and shoulders, putting a "Spock" on one of his nerves. The guy went completely numb and could not move his arms. He tried desperately to reach his handles and his arms would not budge. All he could keep asking himself was "Did I turn my Cypres on ? Oh please, am I sure I turned it on ?". He did and it worked, but he had to watch the ground rush get pretty bad first. THAT'S the kind of situation a Cypres is meant for, not for some yo-yo who's tracking around on his back with a dead battery in his Dytter.


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