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Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris

 

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Ron

Oct 15, 2004, 11:09 AM
Post #26 of 239 (1812 views)
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Re: [ChasingBlueSky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
just take the rig to another DZ/Rigger to hide what happened and thus not having the reality of the situation discussed with them

How many times have you seen a person land after a mal and not get asked about it? You might be able to get the rig to your car before anyone looked to see if the CYPRES fired....But I doubt it.

Also Perris could make a simple rule that if you have a mal it has to be inspected at the DZ. You could take it anywhere to get packed, but the DZ could look at it. I doubt many of us have spare cutters in the car.

In reply to:
Plus, I doubt that Elsinore is enforcing this rule so it wouldn't take much to drive down the street and jump there.

I can see more DZ's following suit. And last I checked, if a DZO or S&TA calls another DZ saying they have grounded someone....Many DZ's will ground the jumper as well.

In reply to:
However, I think it can end up causing damage in the long run as well....or worse, a dead body.

I don't...I think it will put more focus on safety. And living to jump again is the #1 goal on every skydive


gerrcoin  (B License)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:10 AM
Post #27 of 239 (1811 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

When I started jumping I was told the 3 highest priorities for any skydive:
1. Pull
2. Pull with altitude
3. Pull with altitude and stability

in that order.
To which I will append
2.5 Pull with altitude and in clear airspace

AAD fires due to loss of altitude awareness are a very serious thing. How someone can laugh off an incident where, but for the grace of Airtek, they would be dead is beyond me. I was told from day one that should I have an Cypres fire for going low, that I would be banned for life at that DZ (read every european DZ).

I think that 30 days of personal reflection would be a minimum and in fact I'm slightly surprised that this was not already the case.


Ron

Oct 15, 2004, 11:10 AM
Post #28 of 239 (1811 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I hate it when I agree with you

Not MY fault you are comming around to logical thinkingWink


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:11 AM
Post #29 of 239 (1808 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Anyone who has a cypress deployment due to lack of altitude awareness will be grounded at Perris for 30 days.
\

So, someone makes a mistake and you force them uncurrent (no, not by uspa rules, but I personally feel uncurrent after 30 days). I can understand if someone has done this a couple times, but I have seen two jumpers get too low and have their cypres's fire and, though one seemed pretty 'wgaf' about it, the other one seemed to realize what a close call that was, and it appeared they were going to be thinking a lot about that. I think something like this should be handled on a case by case basis... and even after this memo, I am guessing that it will be.

-A


SkydiveNFlorida  (C License)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:15 AM
Post #30 of 239 (1805 views)
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Re: [winsor] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A CYPRES fire changes the outcome from a closed-casket funeral to a repack and a NSTIWTIWGTD story.

This is not always the case. Both times I saw people have cypres fires the cypres had beat them by a split second. The first jumper landed with two out, I think the second jumper had a mal and cutaway and deployed reserve but the cypres beat her by a split second. My guess is that, though close, neither would have died w/o cypres.

Angela.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Oct 15, 2004, 11:19 AM
Post #31 of 239 (1799 views)
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

You need to come up north if you think 30 days is uncurrent Tongue Parts of Canada are already shut down and with highs in the low 50's we are down to probally a month at most to jump still till April.

I think this is policy is exactly what is needed. If you have lots of people pulling low start doing something about it. If you have lots of people having premature deployments due to shoddy gear maintence, make them pass rigger inspection to jump again.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:21 AM
Post #32 of 239 (1796 views)
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Re: [Ron] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You said: I don't think it's fair to make this statement

In reply to:
I think its a perfectly fair statement. People are continuing to jump due to the CYPRES being around that would have quit long ago....I am not sure that thats a good thing.

I have seen MANY people who should not be skydiving.

I, too, think it's a perfectly fair statement. I also know more than a couple of skydivers who have no business still being in the air. Stick around long enough and you will see them. Hell, go to one WFFC and you will see more than you can believe.

I have several very good friends who have taken CYPRES rides this year for basically the same reason: lack of altitude awareness brought on by total fixation on someone else; they were both doing videos. While I am very happy that both made it out OK, I seriously hope that this was all the wakeup call they will ever need in their skydiving careers. NO video footage is worth you cratering. NEVER trust anyone else to be your only judge of altitude. ALWAYS use every tool available to you to ensure deployment at a reasonable altitude.

I applaud Perris on their decision.

Chuck Blue
D-12501


MarkM  (C 35089)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:22 AM
Post #33 of 239 (1794 views)
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Re: [Ron] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No. Fear of being grounded for 30 days is a stupid reason not to have a CYPRES.

What it WILL do is make people pay attention.

Pay attention to their altitude? I hardly think a fear of getting grounded for 30 days is going to make anyone more aware of altitude than the fear of death does.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 15, 2004, 11:23 AM
Post #34 of 239 (1791 views)
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Re: [winsor] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

>If you have a CYPRES fire, you are on free time for the rest of your life.

I'd have to disagree with that. There are people who pull low because they are trying to avoid someone above them and have a cypres fire. An incident which would have ordinarily resulted in nothing more than an argument over better tracking now becomes a 'cypres save.'

Personally, I _should_ have had two cypres firings in my time. One was due to me fighting with an AFF JCC candidate; he held onto my right hand until 1200 feet, just as I was reaching for my reserve. Once he released me my right hand opened my main - I couldn't stop it. (Fortunately my cypres did not fire.) The second was a foolish low breakoff on a 4-way; I was open at around 1200 feet and was the highest opener on the dive. In both cases I made a mistake, in neither case did I consider myself to be 'on borrowed time' - and having a cypres fire would not have affected that. Indeed, I am glad my cypres did _not_ fire on the first dive, and I am glad I did not have one on the second dive.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 15, 2004, 11:25 AM
Post #35 of 239 (1785 views)
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Re: [MarkM] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

>I hardly think a fear of getting grounded for 30 days is going to
>make anyone more aware of altitude than the fear of death does.

Some skydivers with cypreses have replaced their fear of death with a fear of paying for a new cutter and a repack. Ever heard the phrase "that's why I have a cypres?" Some jumpers use their cypres to give them sufficient confidence to no longer fear a terminal impact.


ChasingBlueSky  (D License)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:34 AM
Post #36 of 239 (1772 views)
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Re: [Ron] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How many times have you seen a person land after a mal and not get asked about it?

At a large DZ with multiple planes in the air? Often, esp if there isn't a spotter out there. There are always ways around being caught in this sport (esp if you are your own rigger). And if there wasn't, you will just have people with the rather illogical thought "Hell, I'm not going to get grounded" and turn off their AAD. These are often the types that are bullet proof and get sucked into a dive and distracted. I know you know the type, we've all seen them.

In reply to:
Also Perris could make a simple rule that if you have a mal it has to be inspected at the DZ.
That would be interesting to watch that rule get enforced. I would have no problem with it, but I'm sure many would.

In reply to:
I doubt many of us have spare cutters in the car.
The scary thing is - I know two people that do, just in case they have another fire.

In reply to:
I can see more DZ's following suit. And last I checked, if a DZO or S&TA calls another DZ saying they have grounded someone....Many DZ's will ground the jumper as well.
I've seen that, and I also know of DZs that the DZO/S&TA will take anyone. There are some jumpers that post on this board that were banned at a couple DZs and finally found one to jump at, despite the calls. I don't know any of the staff at elisnore, but I don't see why they wouldn't listen to BC.

In reply to:
I don't...I think it will put more focus on safety.
For the smart ones, and the newbies. But most of those are the ones that you probably wouldn't have to worry about anyway.

In reply to:
And living to jump again is the #1 goal on every skydive
No disagreement on that.

Like I said in my first post - I approve of the forward thinking at Perris. However, I still think it may cause some damage in the end.


ChasingBlueSky  (D License)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:41 AM
Post #37 of 239 (1762 views)
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Re: [bbarnhouse] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

I just re read the rule. It seems like it is open ended.

Quote:
Anyone who has a cypress deployment due to lack of altitude awareness will be grounded at Perris for 30 days

This part seems like the staff would get to pick an choose who gets grounded. Thus allowing anyone that had a fire to argue their point. Am I reading that right?


Ron

Oct 15, 2004, 11:43 AM
Post #38 of 239 (1757 views)
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Re: [MarkM] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pay attention to their altitude? I hardly think a fear of getting grounded for 30 days is going to make anyone more aware of altitude than the fear of death does.

You think you are gonna die in this sport?

No one does, but they still die.

A low pull used to be fairly common. Hell, it used to be a sport. Yes, people died palying it...And it's stupid since the best you can do is tie the recordWink

But watch a few folks get grounded for doing something stupid...and you will work on not doing the same stupid stunt.

Get grounded yourself and I can bet most will work like hell to never do it again.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:47 AM
Post #39 of 239 (1751 views)
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Re: [Dagny] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's a mistake, but mistakes happen. Of course, I understand the possible consequences of these mistakes and I recognize the gravity of these situations, but it seems like a harsh rule.

After you clean up a body or 2 - it doesn't seem that harsh, in fact, I don't think its harsh enough. There is NO EXCUSE. If you are an AFF student and lose altitude awareness - YOU FAIL. If you do it as a fun jumper and don't have an AAD - YOU DIE.

Quote:
Why aren't there mandatory suspensions for other accidents which can result in death? i.e. making a low turn..?

I know of several DZ's that don't allow hook turns and will ground you or pull your silver handle, when you break the rules. Usually those jumpers just go somewhere else to try to kill themselves.

Good for Perris for doing this! I hope more DZ's follow suit.

Judy


sunshine  (D License)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:50 AM
Post #40 of 239 (1746 views)
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Re: [ChasingBlueSky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I just re read the rule. It seems like it is open ended.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who has a cypress deployment due to lack of altitude awareness will be grounded at Perris for 30 days
-----------------------------------------------------------
This part seems like the staff would get to pick an choose who gets grounded. Thus allowing anyone that had a fire to argue their point. Am I reading that right?

Sounds that way to me too. Of course even if you have a cypres fire, go ahead and pull your main. Then you can just say you had a streamer that magically inflated after the cypres fired. (yes it's sarcasm, i don't really suggest doing that) Lots of ways to get around the silly new rule. But then again i don't jump at perris and soon won't jump with a cypres, so it doesn't really apply to me.


MarkM  (C 35089)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:51 AM
Post #41 of 239 (1713 views)
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Re: [billvon] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I hardly think a fear of getting grounded for 30 days is going to
>make anyone more aware of altitude than the fear of death does.

Some skydivers with cypreses have replaced their fear of death with a fear of paying for a new cutter and a repack. Ever heard the phrase "that's why I have a cypres?" Some jumpers use their cypres to give them sufficient confidence to no longer fear a terminal impact.

Then make them jump for 30 days without their cypres and see if their altitude attitude changes any.


Ron

Oct 15, 2004, 11:54 AM
Post #42 of 239 (1707 views)
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Re: [ChasingBlueSky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At a large DZ with multiple planes in the air? Often, esp if there isn't a spotter out there

Maybe, but most likley not. I LIVE on the DZ in Zhills...We question most people about the reserve rides they have. I have been to Chicago...My vidiot had a reserve ride and there was a truck to pick him up almost right after he landed. Perris has a truck and I have seen them waiting for a jumper to land under a reserve....It COULD happen if someone wanted to be sneaky...But most times I bet it will not happen....Hell most people get caught just to see if you can get beer out of them. I find them to have them tell me about it...Like I said It COULD happen...but I doubt it.

In reply to:
There are always ways around being caught in this sport (esp if you are your own rigger).

Yep, but like I said very few reserve rides at Zhills or any good DZ I have been at do they get ignored.

In reply to:
And if there wasn't, you will just have people with the rather illogical thought "Hell, I'm not going to get grounded" and turn off their AAD.

Well thats one way to deal with it...stupid as hell, but a way to deal with it.

In reply to:
That would be interesting to watch that rule get enforced. I would have no problem with it, but I'm sure many would.

A DZ has the right to enforce any rule it seems fit to have. Chicago has a left turn to final in the main landing area right? Do they inforce it? Low pulls are not allowed right? Does the DZ enforce it?

Any rule will have people who don't like them...But the DZ makes the rules and you play along or you can't jump there.

In reply to:
The scary thing is - I know two people that do, just in case they have another fire.

Yeah, thats scary as hell...But since you know of them, I bet the S&TA knows about them as well. Also if you know about them it should be easy to see if they had *Another* one right?

In reply to:
I've seen that, and I also know of DZs that the DZO/S&TA will take anyone. There are some jumpers that post on this board that were banned at a couple DZs and finally found one to jump at, despite the calls. I don't know any of the staff at elisnore, but I don't see why they wouldn't listen to BC.

Yes, money talks and I have known DZO's to ignore not only other DZ's groundings but the S&TA at THAT DZ's groundings....But like you said, I would bet most would listen to a guy like BC.

In reply to:
I approve of the forward thinking at Perris. However, I still think it may cause some damage in the end.

Do you honestly think it could be a BAD thing?


Ron

Oct 15, 2004, 11:56 AM
Post #43 of 239 (1705 views)
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Re: [MarkM] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Then make them jump for 30 days without their cypres and see if their altitude attitude changes any.

Many jumpers will NOT jump without a CYPRES....I am not goingt o start that debate again, but you know how I feel about that.


robertmicp  (A License)

Oct 15, 2004, 11:58 AM
Post #44 of 239 (1700 views)
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Re: [billvon] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

[reply
Some skydivers with cypreses have replaced their fear of death with a fear of paying for a new cutter and a repack. Ever heard the phrase "that's why I have a cypres?" Some jumpers use their cypres to give them sufficient confidence to no longer fear a terminal impact.
And we all have to remember, an AAD is STILL a peice of equipment that CAN fail. As requards this thread, a 30 day sit down for any unsafe act should be mandated. Then again, the USPA is still self governed body and I would hope that would not change. Im my limited sport skydiving experance, I know my plan, I dive my plan and train for the unknown. I dont know how many of you go over emergency procedures before jumping, I do, every time. Everyone I jump with says my hard deck is too high (3500'), I say to them, "Im just giving you more clear air" Its my comfort range and besides, I like the ride :)

my .02


(This post was edited by robertmicp on Oct 15, 2004, 12:00 PM)


winsor  (D 13715)

Oct 15, 2004, 12:02 PM
Post #45 of 239 (1690 views)
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Re: [billvon] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>If you have a CYPRES fire, you are on free time for the rest of your life.

I'd have to disagree with that. There are people who pull low because they are trying to avoid someone above them and have a cypres fire. An incident which would have ordinarily resulted in nothing more than an argument over better tracking now becomes a 'cypres save.
In reply to:

The thread is primarily about CYPRES fires due to loss of altitude awareness, and I limited my comments to those who had their skydive interrupted by a self-actuated reserve without so specifying. My bad.

Sure, someone fighting a mal so their CYPRES just beat their reserve pull or someone with a snivel that took them into CYPRES terrirory fall into another category. I just have images of the footage at the beginning of Tom Sanders' WFFC tape in mind.

People who think "keep pulling handles 'til your goggles fill with blood" is just a clever saying are the ones who concern me. The documented cases where people chopped and went back into freefall, wishing to be stable when the CYPRES activated, really worry me.

I think the CYPRES is terrific. I have 4 of them. I do not, however, consider the system a panacea, and do not expect the system to save my ass if I am not heads-up enough to do so myself (I do hope it does, but...).

The same survival policy that applies to cheesy horror movies is good for skydiving: stay the hell out of the basement!


Blue skies,

Winsor


MWGemini  (B License)

Oct 15, 2004, 12:04 PM
Post #46 of 239 (1688 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm still a student, with 26 jumps, and I, for one, think that a 30 day grounding is more than fair. If I ever become so fixated on the dive that my cypres fires, that means I was 3 seconds from being a stain on the tarmac. If I'm not freaked out enough to ground myself, I would HOPE my fellow jumpers/instructors/DZ would ground me and make SURE I take steps never to od it again. I've pulled lower than I was supposed to twice (3k instead of 3500) because I was tracking and couldn't see my altimeter well, so I misread it. I was reprimanded both times, and my pull altitude was still 500 feet above what the USPA requires for students. My instructors were perfectly justified in that, and I was wrong for going lower than I was supposed to. Regardless of reason, if you lose awareness, you fucked up. Admit it, accept it, and correct it. Be glad you had a device to save you from yourself.

Not to mention the fact that I only jump on weekends, so I would be grounded for a week anyways, while waiting for a new cutter and repack, if not longer.

Edit: Not only should you be grounded, but your first jump (or first several) back should be monitored by a USPA coach or higher, IMO.


(This post was edited by MWGemini on Oct 15, 2004, 12:10 PM)


Ron

Oct 15, 2004, 12:08 PM
Post #47 of 239 (1680 views)
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Re: [robertmicp] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I dont know how many of you go over emergency procedures before jumping, I do, every time.

I still do...several times in fact while walking to the plane...

But you will be surprised what happens when you get 100,200,500,1000 jumps...You get complacency that grows. And THAT is what kills you. Over confidence brought on by never having a problem before.

Very few people think they are gonna die...But every year people do.

In reply to:
Everyone I jump with says my hard deck is too high (3500'), I say to them, "Im just giving you more clear air" Its my comfort range and besides, I like the ride :)

Good for you!...Do you think you are going to keep that hard deck for the next 1,000 jumps?


(This post was edited by Ron on Oct 15, 2004, 12:09 PM)


winsor  (D 13715)

Oct 15, 2004, 12:13 PM
Post #48 of 239 (1671 views)
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Re: [ChasingBlueSky] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

 I doubt that Elsinore is enforcing this rule so it wouldn't take much to drive down the street and jump there.
I have been impressed with how well the S&TA network can work with things like this.

Some time back someone misbehaved at Raeford, and Gene Paul Thacker grounded the hell out of him. Knowing that all he had to do was find another drop zone, he said fine and left.

It turns out that he was unable to get in the air at Chester, North Raleigh or Barnwell, since the principals there checked the guy's bona fides before letting him jump. The bottom line was that if Gene Paul says you're grounded, you're grounded.

There may be competition between DZs on one level, but there tends to be cooperation on an operational basis. Even if two DZs are competing fiercely for business, my experience is that the word of the S&TA at one is taken seriously by the other. If a call comes in regarding a questionable jumper, information provided that they are an incident waiting to happen is taken seriously.

Some things slip through the cracks, but this sport is a particularly small community and you tend to earn the reputation that follows you around.


Blue skies,

Winsor


happythoughts  (D License)

Oct 15, 2004, 12:19 PM
Post #49 of 239 (1667 views)
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Re: [SkydiveNFlorida] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This is not always the case. Both times I saw people have cypres fires the cypres had beat them by a split second.

Think about this, you are travelling 175 ft per sec.
Your cypres first and you stop 100 ft above the ground. I have seen a person get line stretch at 50ft, get a 4 second canopy ride, and gripe about how "he was about to...".

My reserve opens a lot faster than a lot of mains.
If dump your main at the exact instant that your cypres fired, your main would have not opened in time.

The jumper who was "about to" was about to die. They were too late and would have died.

30 days and a talk with an S&TA before re-instatement is an excellent idea.


robertmicp  (A License)

Oct 15, 2004, 12:26 PM
Post #50 of 239 (1656 views)
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Re: [Ron] Cypress Fires New Rule- Perris [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I still do...several times in fact while walking to the plane...

But you will be surprised what happens when you get 100,200,500,1000 jumps...You get complacency that grows. And THAT is what kills you. Over confidence brought on by never having a problem before.

110% agree, as a pilot and master scuba diver, I have seen it over and over complancency kills

In reply to:
Everyone I jump with says my hard deck is too high (3500'), I say to them, "Im just giving you more clear air" Its my comfort range and besides, I like the ride :)

Good for you!...Do you think you are going to keep that hard deck for the next 1,000 jumps?

My safty and life for a few extra seconds of freefall?, yes, I can say I will still pull higher then everyone else. Besides, I like the ride :)


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