Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions: Re: [airtwardo] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA" : Edit Log

EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Oct 21, 2012, 2:02 PM

Views: 6076
Re: [airtwardo] Should WE demand "standardized wingsuit training via USPA"

In reply to:
Correct me if I'm wrong...but doesn't passing the coach course involving demonstrating that you know HOW TO TEACH as well as proving you know WHAT to teach?

I think we may be miscommunicating here Jim. You are either unwittingly agreeing with me, or I did too poor of a job expressing my thoughts. That WAS exactly my point! I will be more specific in this post hopefully.

My point is that any course that a current USPA instructor has been through, wether it be AFF-I, TI, coach, etc. contains a very prominent portion of professional develpoment where the instructor-to-be has demonstrated the proper profeciency on what and how to teach.

Now, I contend that an "experienced WSer" - (I just pulled 200 WS jumps from my ass, I would like feedback from the WS community on that final number, but for arguements sake lets say 200 WS jumps defines this "expereinced wingsuiter")- that is ALREADY a USPA instructor should be able to teach a USPA standardized FFC. They have already properly demonstrated the ability to teach, because they are already instructors, i.e. AFF-I, TI, etc. and they are experienced enough in the subject matter, that being wingsuiting, that they should be able to pick up the standard curriculm and teach it. They already teach people that have NEVER skydived before I am sure that they would be fine teaching jumpers that have 200 plus jumps. Remember that with the WS BSR it is a 200 jump min. so this "expereinced WSer" would have at the very least 400 jumps. 200 prior to WSing, and at least 200 WS jumps. Add to that he must be an instructor (AFF-I, TI, etc.) and you are looking at most likely more jumps than that.

Do you understand what I am saying?

I believe this could work and there is no need for an entire WS-I/E and WS-I program.

1. Develop a standard USPA FFC. Just like the FJC only for WS.

2. Add to the existing WS BSR that a WS wannabe must complete this FFC.

3. Define that the FFC course can be taught by an "experienced wingsuiter" (200+ WS jumps?) that is a current USPA instructor. (AFF-I, TI, IAD-I, etc.)

In reply to:
Just to be clear~

It was EFS4LIFE that made the 'power grab' comment not DSE.

Just to be clear. I think bigbearfng was clear and was agreeing with my comment. If not I believe he will correct me.

In reply to:
IF that were the case, trust me the USPA is the last place DSE would be lobbying to get a standardized curriculum instituted.

Jim are you mad? That is exactly where he MUST go to get it instituted! Where else could he get this mandated for all skydivers lol.

In reply to:
You're an LEO, you understand the importance of being objective and not relying on unfounded conjecture.

When I hear the Power Grab argument I think - prema facie case, for the record, are ya stating opinion, theory or what.

I object - Hearsay ~ you're stating facts not in evidence

Me being a LEO has no bearing on my opinion on this matter, however since you want to bring it into the equation, okay I will bite.

Do you know what Prima Facie is? (not prema, what the hell is that?)

Prima Facie comes from latin, it basically means at first glance. Litterally translated I believe it means at first face. In common law (which we practice) it means evidence that, unless rebutted, would be sufficient to prove a particular propsition or fact. Most all cases require prima facie to exist, then proceedings take place to test it. The speed limit on exit ramps where it is yellow is an example of prima facie law. The regular ones are absolute limits. I can site a person for breaking a prima facie speed limit and the onus is then on the driver to show that the speed he was operating at was safe under the conditions. Too fast for conditions. Per se law is something like the B.A.C. of .08%. The state says you are drunk per se at that level, even though some career alcoholics I know wouldn't even feel buzzed at that level.

Further more you need some education on hearsay. Hearsay is where I attempt to submit evidence that I heard from somebody that heard something from somebody else. That is not what is going on here. This is all public knowledge and being discussed on an open forum, that DSE himself is participating in.

So yes, Prima Facie, it looks like a power grab to me, and apparently I am not alone in that view. To have your handpicked 7 I/E's controling the entire discipline of wingsuiting in the US is a grab of power, PER SE.

In reply to:
So again~ how EXACTLY does this power grab take place?

By the USPA membership voting yes, creating a little cabinet of WS Czar's that we must all flock to if we want to don wingies.

I see by your profile your time in the sport wouldn't allow you to necessarily understand the what's & why's with that.

Jim you could study war history and know a lot about what happened in the American Revolution, but you weren't there right? I don't think your THAT old. Please do not use statements like these. They seem a little condescending towards jumpers that haven't been around as long as you, and from experience it leaves a bad taste in those jumpers mouth. By all means please edjucate us younger jumpers as to your recollection of the history involved, but you can leave out that crap and I bet you would be heard better.

I have heard from some guys that have been around since the start of the AFF program the same sentiment that bigbearnfg is referring to. It may have played out that way for some of the reasoning you gave, but it was still an issue. It is a valid concern in this issue as well. In DSE's own post he admitts it will hurt the potenital newcomers to the WS discipline at smaller DZ's. Small DZ's are the majority of places where people jump across this country. Not all of us are lucky enough to be near big DZ's.

I believe this idea above could work. DSE of course does not. Apparently, he thinks that our current instructors can't teach, and he must evalute and pass anyone that is going to teach a FFC. That is nonsense. There really is not THAT much in a FFC. Go to one of the schools currently teaching. Hell I bet DSE's is similiar. Half the day on the ground instructing, second half making some coach jumps, bang your done. You are WS qualified.

I see no need to institute a whole WS-I/E and WS-I system. It is overkill and will be costly.

editied for clarification of prima facie speed vs. absolute

(This post was edited by EFS4LIFE on Oct 21, 2012, 2:28 PM)

Edit Log:
Post edited by EFS4LIFE () on Oct 21, 2012, 2:28 PM

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